Wednesday, March 24, 2010

Shock Collars


Schwartwalder Fuch

From FHOTD:

More “natural” horsemanship!  Complete with shock collars!
Seriously. Are you kidding me?
In case they take the entry down, it is about a mare who beats up a gelding in the pasture (no, really?).  Julie actually states:
“There is one sure-fired method of curing aggressive horses and I have used it a few times for this purpose. It is a shock collar. It straps around the horse’s neck and is operated off a remote control, issuing a mild and brief shock when you push the button on the remote. Shocking her for her two or three times for her unwarranted and dangerous behavior would probably be all it would take to permanently resolve her of the aggressiveness.”
Oh my GOD … you did NOT just tell people who sound totally like beginners (they were wondering if aggression toward a horse could develop into aggression toward humans) to use a SHOCK COLLAR on a HORSE, did you?
YES.  YES, you DID.
Folks, I’m not kidding. It’s not like I’M digging the hole Natural Horsemanship is burying itself in. I’m simply repeating the stuff they put on their own websites, in their own newsletters, and on their own DVD’s.  This advice could go wrong in about 16,456 ways.  I cannot imagine any kind of normal traditional trainer suggesting anything like this. I mean, it sort of sounds like it belongs in some blog about Shady Halter Horse Trainers – but no, it’s right there in the “Natural” Horsemanship newsletter!
Julie goes on to explain how she has used a shock collar in the past:
“It is intended for use with extreme behavior that is harmful to horse, humans and/or property and it is highly effective. I’ve used it for stall and trailer kickers, for aggressive horses and for a tantrum throwing horse, who threw a wall-eyed destructive tantrum any time you’d take his buddy away. In most cases, one or two training sessions resolved the bad behavior; for the tantrum thrower, it took a few more”
Again, OMG. You just suggested dealing with a herd-bound, freaked out horse with a SHOCK COLLAR?    You know, I don’t get why you and Linda Parelli have so much trouble dealing with a herd-bound, distracted horse. I kind of feel like someone just needs to make you both work at a Thoroughbred breeding farm for a while and deal with broodmares without your handy-dandy sticks, collars and whatever else to help you.  Really, it’s amazing how the rest of us can and do deal with these behaviors without it turning into a big stupid drama.  I just growl at them, back them up a few steps every time they get stupid, and they figure out that acting like a twit results in getting growled at and made to back up.  As for stall and trailer kickers, there is this amazing invention called kicking chains that has been around for probably fifty years.  They don’t even require you to be there watching to work – awesome huh?   By the way, I’ve typically found most stall kicking can be cured with (a) enough turnout and (b) not putting the horse next to a horse they hate in the barn.  You might want to try those tips first before you break out the shock collar!
Oh, and aggressive mares are often turned into sweet mares with Regumate – another totally humane method you might want to try before you start shocking them!
See, this is just another classic example of how stupid all of this is.  Using an e-collar to deal with any of this is like using a nuclear bomb to weed your lawn.  It’s not necessary.  I guarantee you that I can fix anything a horse might do on the ground without any tools, sticks or gimmicks.  So can a large percentage of my readers.  It’s really not that special a gift.  Beginners, there are no tricks that will give you these talents.  There is only experience – and I guarantee you that you aren’t going to learn anything from putting a shock collar on a horse except how to pay vet bills and fix your fence.
Now, Natural Horsemanship Defenders – PLEASE explain to me how an e-collar is NATURAL?  Is that like lightning striking from above if God sees you do something bad?
Gosh, I wish my Crabby Old Bat were still alive — ’cause she was extremely pasture aggressive to other horses and humans she did not care for and she’d have taught Julie a lesson or two about that e-collar bullshit.    That would have made for one awesome pay-per-view special for our friends at Really Fucking Dumb TV!
On a more serious note, I know that you good trainers are busy with actual client horses, but could one of you PUH-LEEEEZE do a video series showing people how to effectively create ground manners, deal with bucking, deal with barn sour behavior, etc. without all of this silly nonsense?  PLEASE?  If you do, and it’s good, I will advertise it for free on this blog.  I am freaked out at the fact that beginners do not seem to have any GOOD advice out there to go by.  Why doesn’t a successful hunter/jumper or dressage trainer do a series of videos that also show ground work and creating ground manners?  Or a successful reining or cutting horse person?  Someone?  Anyone?  If it exists, tell me about it – if I watch it and I like it, you can bet I’ll plug it. I am just so sick of terrible advice being given to beginners!   And the beginners are baffled about where to find good advice.  Do they have videos showing the Pony Club stuff?

127 comments:

  1. The information is from Black Forest Stable
    http://www.blackforesthorse.com

    History of the Black Forest Horse Breed

    History
    Black Forest horses are bred almost exclusively in the Black Forest in southern Germany. In German, they are known as the Schwarzwaelder Kaltblut (Coldblood or Draft Horse), or the Schwarzwaelder Fuchs (fuchs = fox, due to their consistent chestnut coloring). The breed dates as far back as 600 years. Many years used exclusively for forestry work, this breed’s soundness, durability, strength, and gentle nature were perfect adaptation to the steep farmlands in the Black Forest. Their strong legs and durable feet were so necessary to haul logs over the rugged and uneven terrain. 

As machinery began to overtake the use of workhorses, the Black Forest horse breed became endangered. In 1981, there were only 160 registered broodmares. During this time, the German government stepped in to help protect and promote the breed. Close attention was paid to assure proper breeding for the best conformation of the horses. Vigorous performance testing was implemented to assure that only the best breeding stock of stallions and mares would be used to maintain and enhance the marvelous qualities of this breed. Many of the crowned stallions now stand at the Haupt und Landesgestuet Marbach, the state stud farm in Baden-Wuerttemberg, while others stand at private stud farms throughout various regions of Germany. 

Eventually, these horses began to be used for more than just field work: today they handsomely pull wedding carriages, carry any size rider easily through varied terrain, and their gentle nature has earned them a well-deserved role in aiding children in therapeutic riding facilities. As their fan base has grown, the numbers of Black Forests is once again on the rise. Today, there are 46 “crowned” stallions within Germany, and approximately 700 registered Black Forest mares. While still considered endangered, their growth in numbers has all but guaranteed they will now survive.
    Description
    The Black Forest breed is so rare that it can hardly even be found in the largest, most extensive books of horse breeds. If it is found, it is with a small line of text typically under the "Noriker" draft breed found in Austria. 

In descriptions, one tends to easily say that the Black Forest horse is "in between Haflingers and Belgians", due to their size and color, although they are not directly related to either. But it is just that: their average 15 hand size, a size rarely found in a true draft horse, that makes the Black Forest horse the perfect all-around horse.
    Breed Standards
    Height: 148 cm to 160 cm (14.2 to 16 hands). Weight: approx. 500 - 600 kg's (1250-1400 lbs). Color: Sorrel to dark chestnut with blonde/flaxen mane and tail. There is one family of greys and one family of bays
    Lineages
    There are 6 main bloodlines to the Black Forest Horse. The oldest are the D- and M-Lines, followed by the R- and W-Lines. Most recently, the F-Line was created with the addition of the Freiberger blood, and the V-Line with the addition of the Schleswiger blood. This was necessary to avoid the closer inbreeding when the breed became endangered. 

The D-, M- and R- lines tend to be somewhat smaller and more compact (14.2-15.2 hands), while the W-, F- and V- lines carry more size and stature (15-16 hands).

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  2. Here is the link to the Julie Goodnight page that Fubbly is referring to.

    http://juliegoodnight.com/questionsNew.php?id=199

    Fubbly- spin much?

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  3. Can anyone tell me where Fubbly gets her experience in horse training comes from? Her credentials? Education in anything equine related?
    Am I correct when I say she was a paralegal after washing out pre law?
    I am thinking her experience with polo ponies was sleeping with a player, right?
    Then off to cat rescue after her attempt as screenwriter and mingling with the "stars" failed.
    Never once can I find where she actually had a job related to anything equine other than her brag that she once had students in the NE but that has never been confirmed.
    So Fubbly, we know you read here. What makes YOU more credible than Julie Goodnight?

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  4. Looks to me like Fubbly is jealous of Julie

    http://feeds.feedburner.com/JulieGoodnightOnTheRoad

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  5. Looks to me like Fubbly is jealous of Julie

    http://feeds.feedburner.com/JulieGoodnightOnTheRoad

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  6. Question:
    HI, I have really appreciated your calm, common sense approach, so I wondered if I might ask you a horse behavior question, just to hear your thoughts. We recently (2weeks ago) introduced our new horse to my mare and mule. The mare and mule (the girls) are both very sweet and quiet natured. They have been in with other horses but not for about 2 years. Any way the new guy is an older app gelding. They had time in stalls for a few days to snort and touch noses etc and were let out together and seemed to be doing fine. Lately however, the last few days, the new gelding is becoming increasingly aggressive to the girls. we have a run-in barn, that is plenty large enough, but the new guy is now going in and intimidating the mare and mule so that they just stand out side. During cold, rain, fly season etc it is important that they all get to go in so I am getting really concerned. Does it take more than 2 weeks for them to settle into a herd, or does it sound like I have to do some thing different? And what? I really like the gelding but I love the older two, and can not build a new barn for him. If they are totally separated, the gelding is distraught. Any thoughts, suggestions, etc to have harmony here and 3 equines that can share a barn? (The barn is 36x32, has always been fine for 3 before). Thank you for your time. MC
    Answer:
    It sounds like normal herd behavior going on with your bunch. The gelding is trying to make the mares submiss so that he has total control over them. Probably they are more bonded to each other than to him and that is driving him crazy. Stallions in the wild will herd his mares until they become submissive and obedient.
    It is also possible that your gelding is just a bully. A good herd leader will establish his/her authority and then leave the other horses alone, only discipline them if they are disrespectful or disobedient. However, some horses are just bullies and will pick on the other horses in the herd relentlessly. Perhaps it is coincidence but I have known quite a few appy geldings that were bullies. By now, the herd hierarchy should have straightened out and he should be treating the mares better. If not, he may be a relentless bully and may need to be separated from the girls.
    If his aggressive behavior continues, you may want to consider the use of an electric shock collar. It is only used in cases where it is in the horse's best interested to eliminate the unacceptable behavior, which in this case is aggressiveness. People have had remarkable success with aggressive horses in very short order. The shock collar is similar to what they use on dogs, but with a much lower level of stimulation (at the lowest level, a human cannot feel anything). Basically you put the collar on the horse and from a distance, you give him a shock every time he acts aggressively. Generally, in one or two session the horse is cured.
    Good luck with your horse. I hope they have settled by now. Julie Goodnight, Clinician and Trainer

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  7. The above is the JG comment Fubbs is referring to.

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  8. I was hoping that you would put up a full body picture of that gorgeous horse. I went to the website and drooled a lot. The price is beyond my scope but it is wonderful to stare at a rather rare breed who takes your breath away. Thanks for the pic. It is a delight to look at it.

    As for Fugs, it seems as though she is always using grandiose, exaggerated, melodramatic tactis in her own spins on what people say in order to attract readers.

    I would never use a shock collar on my horses because 1) there are better, less invasive ways of dealing with an issue and 2) I am not a trainer nor do I have the experience needed to deal with bad behavior in horses so that is why I pay someone to work with them. Yes, a trainer who knows what she is doing. Then again, my horses don't behave badly (at home, anyway). They all get along, thank God.

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  9. Would someone make that horse stop bowing?
    he's creeping me out.
    What does he look like, when he's NOT bowing?

    or is that how they move?

    :)

    BunnyHops?

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  10. Where does "If his aggressive behavior continues, you may want to consider the use of an electric shock collar."
    translate into " a herd-bound, freaked out horse"?????
    No where did I read the horse was either. Sounded like a typical bitchy mare to me.

    Must be Fubspeak.

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  11. GoLightly said...
    Would someone make that horse stop bowing?


    He is thanking God he is not owned by Fubbly. Many horses do it. A Lot.

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  12. Anon,
    For interest sake can you tell us how to approach herd bullying without a shock collar. Advice and opinions are always welcome as I want this blog to be a source for information as well.

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  13. "He is thanking God he is not owned by Fubbly. Many horses do it. A Lot."

    ROFLMAO. I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type.

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  14. Fubbles said:

    "Why doesn’t a successful hunter/jumper or dressage trainer do a series of videos that also show ground work and creating ground manners? Or a successful reining or cutting horse person? Someone? Anyone? If it exists, tell me about it – if I watch it and I like it, you can bet I’ll plug it."

    Is Fubbles trying to extract decent training methods from others to then add to her "knowledge" base so that she can exploit the info and pass it off as her own so she looks like a "knowledgeable" horse woman to the lesser informed?




    "I am just so sick of terrible advice being given to beginners!"

    But fubbles, isn't that what your ramblings on your blog are; terrible advice to everyone, not just beginners?

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  15. Fubbles said:

    "Why doesn’t a successful hunter/jumper or dressage trainer do a series of videos that also show ground work and creating ground manners? Or a successful reining or cutting horse person? Someone? Anyone? If it exists, tell me about it – if I watch it and I like it, you can bet I’ll plug it."

    They have. There are lots of them. Take your pick. BUT because they do not ask you to plug them speaks volumes, Fubbly.

    Didya ever stop to think that good trainers neither need or want to be endorsed by you? Twit. Or is that Twat?

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  16. Fub's is just blowing smoke - she'd still have issues with top, successful trainers. Why not put up a video of herself working on Yellow's ground manners, or any of those rescues she's plugging?

    Step up the plate, Fubs. I'm tired of the talk.

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  17. You know, the gal who asked the question actually gave a lot of info about her situation, but the 'acts aggressively' part really could be a wide range of behaviors.

    My first inclination is to tell her that it can actually take months for a new horse introduced to an existing herd to become part of and to actually trust the other horses and the the new horse. It's particularly difficult for a 3rd horse to penetrate an existing duo.

    My first thought is that the new gelding doesn't feel comfortable sharing an enclosed space with the other two and has successfully put the run on them in defense.

    While I wouldn't rule out the use of the shock collar in the event the gelding was being overly aggressive in multiple situations. I would probably simply go with putting a couple of panels in the corner of the barn to create a pen to put the gelding in whenever it was necessary for everyone to have access to the shelter. This way, they would all have the chance to get more familiar with each other in an enclosed situation.

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  18. I want to use the shock collar on Fubbs!

    GL thanks for my daily laugh :)

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  19. Anonymous said...
    I want to use the shock collar on Fubbs!


    So does BYC's breeder, YHI.

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  20. Better up the setting on that, fugs might enjoy the tingling sensation too much otherwise.

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  21. "But fubbles, isn't that what your ramblings on your blog are; terrible advice to everyone, not just beginners?"

    So true...so true!

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  22. BHM,

    The text you pasted into the comment is from "MC" and is about an appy gelding bullying two mares. The post on Julie Goodnight's page (the one Fugly is talking about) is from "Sherri" and is about a draft cross mare bullying a gelding.

    The two Q&As, are similar, and I suppose both are relevant to the discussion. I am just curious where the one you posted came from.

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  23. Don't give Fubbs' shock collar controls to GL. She'll just glue the shock button down in the on position.

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  24. I will read the post and comment later. Right now to busy gazing at the beautiful horse yuo posted pics of

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  25. It came from JG's Q and A page.

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  26. Oh ok, I found it BHM. http://juliegoodnight.com/questionsNew.php?id=54

    With the two similar but different situations, I was getting really confused lol

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  27. Question:
    Hi Julie-

    My husband and I have both benefited so much from your training DVDs, halters and lead ropes, as well as your wonderful television show. We look forward to continuing to learn from you and gain even more from other products. Thank you so much for sharing your wealth of knowledge and experience!

    We have a four-year-old draft cross mare. We are training her under harness and she is coming along nicely. In most ways she is a wonderful horse: calm, respectful and gentle. But we have an area of concern and aren't sure how to best handle it. We board a friend's gelding. Generally they get along fine. However, sometimes she just lays into him kicking, biting, running at him and charging him. Sometimes we are in the pasture with them when this behavior is going on. Needless to say, we are a bit nervous about getting caught in the crossfire. We have recently decided to separate the two for the winter, as we downsize their pasture in winter quite significantly.

    Two questions for you: 1) Some of this is no doubt just normal horse behavior. Is there an underlying training issue though that we should be addressing with our mare? 2) She has never demonstrated any tendency at kicking towards us. We do recognize the risk to our safety when she is acting this way towards the gelding and we happen to be in the way. But is it likely that a horse acting this way with another horse will start getting that kicking tendency with humans?

    Thanks so much for your time and any advice you can offer us in handling this situation!

    Sherri in Spokane, WA

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  28. Answer:
    Sherri,

    While the behavior you describe could be chalked up to normal herd behavior, some horses can be classified as bullies. These horses are unnecessarily aggressive towards others. In other words, even after dominance has been fully established, they continue to attack other horses around them—seemingly for no good reason other than just to pick on them. If the gelding is not doing anything to deserve these attacks, then I’d say your mare is a bully.

    You are absolutely correct in that this behavior poses not only a safety issue for you and your husband, but also for the gelding. One thing to think about is whether or not this is primarily happening when you are in the pen with them. It is possible that she is very jealous and is trying to keep him from coming near you. This is not necessarily a good thing either because it could indicate that she thinks you are her property—so it could indicate a dominance issue between you and your horse.

    In answer to your second question—will this lead to her kicking you—I’d say that is doubtful. It sounds like she knows how to act properly when she is haltered or tacked-up but I’d make darn sure she is harshly punished if she even thinks about displaying any type of herd behavior toward another horse when she is in-hand or being ridden. This is absolutely forbidden behavior and should be met with a zero-tolerance policy. There are several articles in my Training Library on this subject.

    When you enter any pen of horses, the pecking order should immediately change to where you are the alpha in the pen. One thing you might consider is to go into the pen with a stick or whip (for your protection—not to beat on the horse with) and actually defend the gelding, by chasing away the mare’s attacks. This will only help him when you are present but it may help resolve the dominance issues that may be under-lying between you and the mare.

    There is one sure-fired method of curing aggressive horses and I have used it a few times for this purpose. It is a shock collar. It straps around the horse’s neck and is operated off a remote control, issuing a mild and brief shock when you push the button on the remote. Shocking her for her two or three times for her unwarranted and dangerous behavior would probably be all it would take to permanently resolve her of the aggressiveness.

    It is intended for use with extreme behavior that is harmful to horse, humans and/or property and it is highly effective. I’ve used it for stall and trailer kickers, for aggressive horses and for a tantrum throwing horse, who threw a wall-eyed destructive tantrum any time you’d take his buddy away. In most cases, one or two training sessions resolved the bad behavior; for the tantrum thrower, it took a few more.

    Many people are initially turned off by this approach—I suppose thinking it is cruel or too harsh. But in my opinion, in certain circumstances, it is the most humane approach. I know of a horse who has now kicked and killed two horses by kicking them and breaking their legs. Then, take the case of a stall kicker—whose behavior can cause him serious injury and is destructive to property (and may result in him being evicted from a boarding barn). The most common training technique for this vice is to hang “kicking chains” on the horse’s hind legs which wrap him in the legs every time he kicks (and bumps his legs every time he moves). It will discourage him from kicking but you have to leave the chains on forever—not a very nice thing for the horse. Whereas one or two sessions with the shock collar would permanently cure him of stall kicking and prevent him from injury.

    The best thing for your mare and for the safety of the gelding and the people in the pasture, is to Cure her of this behavior. Once she learns it is not acceptable, she’ll quit doing it and everyone, including her, will be happier.

    Good luck and be safe!
    Julie

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  29. I like SB's observation. What makes a shock collar inhumane and a fence wire humane?

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  30. At least in the fence wire situation, the horse can bolt away (no pun intended) from the fence whereas if he is wearing the collar.....he can't. Can you imagine the chaos that ensues when the horse can't "escape" the "shock"? With the collar on, the horse doesn't know when the controller is going to zap him again. In the fence case, he knows if he moves away from it, it won't be zapped again.

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  31. Regarding shock collar vs fence wire:

    They can at least run away from the fence. They can't get away from the collar, and it might take a while to figure out exactly what behavior "causes" the collar to shock them. It is very clear that fence=shock. With the shock collar, there are more possibilities: is it where I'm standing, what my feet are doing, or where my head is?

    This difference is especially true if the human controlling the shock isn't perfect with the cause-effect timing. The fence is automated to shock always, and only, when the horse touches it.

    Also, fence resepect is absolutely crucial to the horse's safety. Running out into the road is a much more severe problem than stall damage or bullying.

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  32. The amount of shock of fencing vs collar is vastly different. Collars also have adjustable settings from mild tingling to a stronger response.
    And common sense would dictate that the person using the collar do it in an appropriate manner.

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  33. Fugs took lessons when she was young, in Wisconsin. She always mentions her first and worst barn. I've also noticed t hat as she exaggerates, the years of lessons she took have now turned into nine in her latest blog post, when earlier it was only a couple years.
    She has never mentioned that she worked with a big-name trainer or took an instructor's course. Her attempts at trying to teach young girls to ride was limited to a dirt circle in a pasture with grazing horses nearby. No arena, no indoor. She has NO credentials. She is all bluster and arrogance, but have you noticed how she never gives her readers her cirriculum vitae?
    Her nose is made of wood and it grows longer with her lies. She has earned the name 'Fugnocchio'.

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  34. So ,I am sitting here slack jawed ! I read fugs post and her cure for pasture aggression is to not deal with it at all , rather to medicate(Regumate) or "put the horse with someone it doesn't hate"??? Not sure I agree with the shock collar thing with a horse (not because I percieve it to be cruel as such I just don't believe it would be particualrly effective unless you are able to monitor 24/7.
    Fugly , has obviously not dealt with herd dynamics much if at all. If her only piont of reference continues to be one individual mare answer to all!

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  35. Fubb said:
    "Using an e-collar to deal with any of this is like using a nuclear bomb to weed your lawn. It’s not necessary."

    Hmmmm, sending out a worldwide beat-down on a girl who entered the wrong class in a show is like using a nuclear bomb......
    Fubb is so contradictory and self-serving.

    Training your horse to be respectful of your personal space isn't very difficult. I would like to see how Fubb trains her horses to be respectful of another HORSE'S space in a pasture/free-roaming setting. Um, let me guess. She has no clue? What a surprise.

    Dogs aren't that much smarter than horses according to some tests I read about. If dogs can figure out a shock collar, so can horses.
    The control operator would have to be knowledgable in its use as Anon@10:26 said, and have the time to do it until the training is complete.

    I'm for more fences and separating the bully if they can't figure it out in what seems like a reasonable amount of time.

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  36. To Anon@10:47

    hahahahaha! Fugnocchio! Or here I guess it would be Fubbnocchio.

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  37. Hmm, I have to admit that I have wished I had a shock collar at times ;) teenagers come to mind, hahaha!...

    A bully horse can really do some damage to other horses. Also, if a bully horse can not be corrected in some manner it is going to wind up down the road. I'd prefer to not have to deal with a bully, but if a horse shows dangerous behavior and a shock collar is the last resort I'd use it.

    Once again, as with any training tool, correct diagnosis of the problem, timing and consistency would determine the outcome. A shock collar would be a simple yes/no aversive training tool and would have to be used correctly...just like whips, bits, spurs, rope halters, etc.

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  38. Hahaha, love the Fug/Fubbnocchio comment. What makes it so funny is that it's so true.

    Can you imagine the shock collar in the hands of an idiot (many of which read that blog)? I can see it now. Drunken Hubby/Boyfriend says to his buds, "hey, wanna see something neat?" He then breaks out the collar, puts it on the horse and proceeds to push that button continuously, laughing with glee while his drunken buddies do the same, all in the name of entertainment. OMG the demented possibilities are endless in the hands of idiots. Where on earth would you BUY a shock collar for the size of a horse anyway?

    Yes, Fubbs is all talk and no action.

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  39. Just for reference here is Fubbly's commet on her twitter page:

    Editorial opinion-only remark: Julie Goodnight is smokin' crack handing out this advice. http://juliegoodnight.com/questionsNew.php?id=199

    Smells like jealousy to me. Smokin crack? Really? Well, Fubs, as far as cracks go you will win the internet award on that one. Never seen Julie's, but most everyone is familiar with yours, followed by the immediate loss of stomach contents.

    Wonder if Ms Goodnight has ever been featured in HI? I cannot believe they have not canned Fubnocchio.

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  40. Wouldn't it be lovely if it were Julie Goodnight who took Fubby to court with all this crap she's slinging about her?

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  41. An idea for a better shock collar. One collar for the bully and another signal collar for the subject of the bullying. When the bully comes within three feet of the horse with the signal collar it will receive a shock. This option would allow a horse to learn to stay away the way it learns to stay away from a fence with an e-wire.

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  42. bhm
    Great idea! A horse force field!

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  43. I have one thing to say about Ms. Goodnight & Get the Fuck Out...

    She is associated with others who are on the same level as Flubbs. So called trainers who are throwing out their 'credentials' of places they are clearly NOT associated with.

    I could say more, (A LOT MORE!) but a good friend of mine is somewhat involved (guilty by by association) and being harrassed due to retaliation efforts on the part of others, from the downfall of all of this.


    Flubs-
    "Why doesn’t a successful hunter/jumper or dressage trainer do a series of videos that also show ground work and creating ground manners? Or a successful reining or cutting horse person? Someone? Anyone? If it exists, tell me about it – if I watch it and I like it, you can bet I’ll plug it."

    Seems she had a couple of knowledgeable trainers in her midst and close knit 'fellowship'. Thing is, they knew when to abandon the ship before it began to sink. They are the smart ones. They knew her unwarranted 'sponsorship' is no more than another one of her roads to nowhere.

    As for the Natural Horsemanshit folks, doesn't the boy wonder from down under endorse the shock collar too? Um, yes. Yes he does. To put an end to cribbing and stall walking or pacing. Something fugs heavily states is a side effect of ulcers. Bloody Brilliant! Let's zap the horse for something related to an internal issue that we have probably created for them. *shakes head*

    I just don't know.
    Can it really get any worse?
    Can it?
    Really?
    Seriously?

    Anon <3

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  44. Anon 1:35
    Wouldn't it be lovely if it were Julie Goodnight who took Fubby to court with all this crap she's slinging about her?

    That can be arranged you know...

    Anon <3

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  45. That can be arranged you know...

    Anon <3


    Well, I know Julie has the funds to hire a lawyer where as Fubb's... I have no clue. It's one thing to spread free speech, but Fubb's public outbursts at everyone with her thinking she's above the law or morality, has gone on long enough.

    (Besides, I've heard nothing but good things about JG. Can't say the same for Fubbs)

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  46. Anon, Miss JG may have the funds as you say, but did you read the first part of my first post?

    "She is associated with others who are on the same level as Flubbs. So called trainers who are throwing out their 'credentials' of places they are clearly NOT associated with."

    I understand she may not be doing this herself, but surrounding yourself with others who do, does not reflect well on your character nor speak well of your integrity.

    I have insider info on this and you will just have to trust me. A good friend of mine is in the middle of a whirlwind of a shitstorm concerning all of this, otherwise I or s/he would spill it. The truth might just suprise a lot of people.

    Anon <3

    ReplyDelete
  47. You raise an interesting point about fences, anon. Here is what I think (to expand on what I meant)

    At least in the fence wire situation, the horse can bolt away (no pun intended) from the fence whereas if he is wearing the collar.....he can't.
    He can, provided it is used properly. He goes away from the horse he is bullying, he gets away from the shock.

    Can you imagine the chaos that ensues
    when the horse can't "escape" the "shock"?

    Yes, that would be a horror. I would also consider it a perversion of the tool.

    With the collar on, the horse doesn't know when the controller is going to zap him again. In the fence case, he knows if he moves away from it, it won't be zapped again.
    Except this relies on the premise that the horse understands the zap is coming from the collar. That's not how you get it to work. The horse is supposed to figure that the zap is coming from touching the other horse aggressively. Likewise, the horse understands that he gets zapped when he touches the fence...not the same as him reasoning that the fence is what zaps him. The horse generally seems to reason cause and effect with respect to what HE does (I do this, this happens)

    Like Julie Goodnight elaborates though...for this to work, you need to time the zap properly, and you need to be observing the behavior often enough that you're zapping the horse more often than not...or he may draw an undesireable association, like you've described. When JG has recommended this in other situations, she usually sets the parameters...like you only put the collar on when the horses are contained together and YOU ARE THERE. Separate them the rest of the time.

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  48. I've heard nothing but good things of her, however, I'm not a follower of her, nor do I even know what the woman looks like. If I were JG and knew that someone like Fugs was running her mouth about me like she is, I would only hope she would take appropriate actions.

    I have no idea what you mean by your friend seeing a shitstorm on the inside or anything. That is far over my head.

    ReplyDelete
  49. "I have insider info on this and you will just have to trust me."

    Well, imagine that. The horse world has more drama. Go figure.

    In all honesty, I never heard of JG until Fubbly's post, but upon reading her answer to the letter and her blog, meh... she seems okay.
    Are you suggesting that Fubbs threw her name out there as a publicity stunt to get JG some press?
    Either way, just wonder if she is aware and what her reaction is to her being deemed a crack user?

    ReplyDelete
  50. Shock collar!?

    What the hell.

    Unfortunately I have heard of Arab halter trainers using them to 'Jazz' a laid back horse that won't stand up for them.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Well said, SB.
    Concise, and accurately put, merci, tres buckets!

    The same "horror" can be said of ANY pressure we put on the animal, at all. If it isn't released, at the exact RighT time, it's a horror to the animal, for sure. It's up to us to release it before it becomes incomprehensible.
    Animals are very much A=B=C.
    It's extremely important that the collar (or ANY training tool) is used, without ANY consequences at ALL, to start, other than good ones. Your handling alone makes the tool useful or horrific.


    Off to feed my stick figures...

    blathering fool out.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Hey, JR's awake!

    word verf,honest to goodness!

    Bless.

    Did someone sneeze?

    ReplyDelete
  53. That is almost as good as watching Linda P. terrorize that poor horse in that video

    ReplyDelete
  54. There's 200 videos on youtube of Linda Parelli. Which one are you referring to? I want to see this one.

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  55. Anon

    go to my blog. On the most recent post GL posted a link. I am not computer savvy enough to do the link. Sorry

    ReplyDelete
  56. I gotta go to sleep, you people stay up too late.
    Sorry If I sounded more like an idiot than usual.
    HorsemanShit
    a la Linda Parelli.

    Re:
    Shock Collars
    Extreme, dangerous cases of behaviour, for the use of a shock, JR. Not to make a horse look electrified.
    Of course, any tool can be abused by bone-heads and such.

    anon 8:05, you should read JR's blog. He'll be talkin' about that video soon, he said.

    Did TOO!

    Night, all!

    ReplyDelete
  57. Thanks GL for the link to that video. I'm in a state of shock. I am not a trainer by any stretch of the imagination but I do watch the lady who trains my horses and she would NEVER do anything at all like this to them. She's firm in her teachings yet gentle. She is assertive (lets them know she is boss) when my horses misbehave and gains control of the situation without abuse of any kind. When they do what she wants, she rewards them with strokes and scratches of their neck. She doesn't believe in rewarding with treats. They do as she asks and follow her around the arena and the sessions ALWAYS end on a great note. I can't tell you all how greatful I am to have found her. I wouldn't be riding them if it weren't for her. She makes Linda look like an imbecile who belongs in jail for animal abuse. And to think that the poor horse was blind (one eye missing) makes this whole horrid video even more sordid and cruel.

    I know there are abusive trainers out there but coming from a well known personality, and one who has made millions promoting their methods is truly appalling and shocking to say the least.

    I'm so glad I never invested in their bogus promotional dvds, etc. I wonder what the owner of that poor horse thought when she was done.

    Pat and Linda Parelli should RETIRE permanently from horse training.

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  58. I have experience using shock collars with dogs. They're an incredibly useful training tool for a handful of situations. Shock collars were actually invented to be more humane than the former tool used, which was a shotgun shell full of ratshot.

    Modern shock collars are built so that they aren't a simple on/off situation. The "on" button is timed to deliver a split second (literally a couple hundredths of a second) shock and then turn off. It's very much akin to what happens if a horse touches the hotwire--a split second of zap, horse shies back, zap is gone.

    The vast majority of dogs do not connect the shock with the collar because the way a shock collar is used is to put the collar on the dog for many hours a day, for many days before it is ever used. By the time the trainer actually shocks the dog, the dog has become habituated to the collar. It's very common for dogs to examine the ground after a zap; I can't read their furry little minds but it looks like they are looking for bees.

    A shock collar is like any other training tool like a halter, leash, lead rope or bit. Used properly, they are humane and effective.

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  59. GD,
    I can see them being useful for specific purposes. It's funny that no one complains that dog shock collars are abusive.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Love this forum and format. It is great to read Fubblebutt without adding to her counts and being moderated on her comments. She sure dropped that Free Speech thing as it relates to her readers, didn't she?

    ReplyDelete
  61. bhm, there's a *huge* number of people who believe that any use of a shock collar on a dog is wrong. To the point that they have been made illegal in some countries!

    I have read serious recommendations to euthanise a dog for behaviours that could easily, quickly and efficiently be changed via the proper use of a shock collar.

    Before I ever used one on a dog, I put it on my own neck and ran through the entire spectrum of shocks. At the lower levels, it was more weird than unpleasant or painful. At the higher levels, it was definitely painful; it felt about as painful as being stung by a yellow jacket wasp but the pain was completely gone in a split second, rather than lingering for several minutes like a wasp sting.

    Now, I am speaking as a human being who has been run into by car (in a parking lot). I can absolutely assure you that being hit by car is far more painful and harmful than experiencing a shock collar at the highest level of intensity.

    While humans are not animals, the AVMA does say that in matters pertaining to pain control, we are similar enough to dogs to use human experiences to infer what a dog is going through when they have cancer, go through a surgical procedure, etc.

    I believe that the animal rights activists who are so horrified by shock collars are completely wrong. Sure, a shock collar can be misused. So can a car! But a car can also save a life.

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  62. Thanks for explaining how these shock collars work. I'm glad that the device administers a split second shock then turns off but it's the controller that could easily push that button as many times as he/she wants and the horse can't escape it because it's on him. That is where the "abuse" comes in and we all know people have a tendency to get carried away and misuse the device. This is the concern I have.

    If the horse is not connecting the shock with the bad behavior (whatever it is), what's the point in using it in the first place?

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  63. I haven't had any experience in using shock collars on anything. But if the standard for use is that someone, somewhere, could abuse training tool, then what training tools are going to be left for use?
    I'm willing to bet that more horses have been abused by sticks then by shock collars. Fools will abuse horses with lead ropes if nothing else is handy.
    I don't believe that JG was suggesting that a shock collar as a panacea for all bad behavior, or that it should be used as a first resort, or that it should be used by psychopaths.
    Horses will eventually associate a shock with it's behavior. That is the reason we can train horses. Horse brains aren't people brains, don't anthropomorphize horses. They don't ponder the nature of the universe, look for cause and effect patterns, or plan what to do with their day. They bite at X and ZAP. The behavior stopped. They bite a X again. ZAP the behavior stopped. After LOTS of repetitions, an association is formed. It may be "if I go near X I get zapped" or it might be "if I bite I get zapped". Part of it depends on the skill of the trainer. Either way the behavior is stopped. Read about Pavlov and classical conditioning which is not the same thing as operant conditioning.

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  64. I don't really get the whole uproar over shock collars. Sure they can be abused, but so can your fist connected to a punching arm.
    And certainly having a "constant" shock would be horrible (horse or dog), but the way they work seems not any different to me than a smack on the side, or a flick of a whip. It should be brief and immediately connected to the action meant to be changed.
    The good part of shock collars, of course, if you can be standing "away" from the horse (or dog) and because many of the behaviors are ones we are trying to change when the animal knows we are not around, then we can "hide" and teach the horse to change a behavior without them realizing we are there to do it. A heck of a lot of value in that, I think! I certainly wouldn't use it to fix a behavior that was based on fear, but an aggressive or just plain "should know better" behavior? I think it's a potential tool in the tool box!
    In general, I don't understand why we have become so ridiculously "IT'S ABUSE!" with our animals. Kinda like how nobody wants to spank kids anymore. Sometimes cookies and "positive reinforcement" just don't work! A gal working for me has a young border collie who is becoming horrible about chasing cats, chickens, etc...There have been several incidents and she told me she has been taking him to a trainer that is working on "positive reinforcement" to change this behavior. This dogs little brain turns off when he sees a bird (I've seen him do it at my house). His owner will run and get him, and say "no-no" while kinda petting him. Gee - scary. Me? Well, I cured our dog of trying to eat our birds in 3 episodes. First time she got in trouble from my husband (not enough, he is too nice), 2nd time she got in trouble from me but I didn't catch her quick enough "in the act" so then she started "sneaking" over to the pen when I wasn't around. So I hid, when she snuck over and made for the big kill, I grabbed her, slapped her in the nose several times, yelled and screamed AT THE TOP OF MY VOICE, chased her all over the farm and into the house where she had to stay in "purgatory" until I SAID she could come out. She hasn't touched a bird since. According to my friends dog trainer, however, that would be cruel. Well, right now she has to lock her dog up all day and can't let him out on their 400 acre farm because he gets into too much trouble. Our dog, outside with me all day. Who is cruel, again?

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  65. GD,
    I had to test the e-wire fence on myself before I subjected my pony boy to it. Snicker.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Wonder if we can find a shock keyboard for Fubbly.

    **ZAP, ZAP, ZAP***

    ReplyDelete
  67. As an owner of two willful dogs that I have done most of the training on - shock collars (for dogs) are a "last resort" tool. Too many people turn to them as the first response when their untrained dog runs off at the dog park, or jumps up on people, or (name the behavior of your choice). I know one guy who wanted to put a shock collar on his Boxer to "get her attention" when she ran off to play with dogs at the dog park - nevermind working with her AWAY from the dog park to be sure she recognized him as alpha and would willingly respond to his voice; or that he would be punishing her for approaching other dogs in a friendly way. (Side note: this same Boxer will jump up on his bed, get his attention, then pee - he thinks she has a housetraining issue. He's so dog-stupid (and won't learn) that he doesn't know an obvious dominance display when he sees one.

    Once when I was out walking, a dog charged out of its yard to come see me, while the owner stood on the porch yelling and pushing a button. Thankfully, the dog was friendly _and_ the batteries on his shock collar were dead. Here's the awful part: the collar was wrapped around the dog's privates.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Fubby today
    A mixed bag of Thoroughbred stories today…
    Not sure if this is news – I think most of us knew we were losing too many. I just never considered that it wasn’t the same all over. Apparently, U.S. racehorses are dying at over twice the rate of their European counterparts. On a more positive note, the article also notes that fatalities in California have dropped FORTY PERCENT with the installation of synthetic track surfaces. Wow. I guess we know what we need to do, don’t we? I do understand not everybody is a fan of the synthetic surface and it sounds like some wrecks happen because of it but still, 40% fewer deaths? Hard to argue with good results.


    After someone points out she is wrong ....

    Yeah, that’s what I meant – I knew the synthetic had been known to cause injuries, just different ones.

    I didn’t know that about turf. Although it makes sense – what’s a natural surface for horses to run on? So really maybe the solution is turf courses? I imagine they are hard to maintain, aren’t they? Polo fields get TRASHED. How do they do it? Fill me in, I don’t know much about this.

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  69. Fubby PLEASE BACK AWAY FROM THE TB's!!!

    Today she points out less injuries on Ca tracks and then someone corrects her so she posts

    Yeah, that’s what I meant – I knew the synthetic had been known to cause injuries, just different ones.

    I didn’t know that about turf. Although it makes sense – what’s a natural surface for horses to run on? So really maybe the solution is turf courses? I imagine they are hard to maintain, aren’t they? Polo fields get TRASHED. How do they do it? Fill me in, I don’t know much about this.

    You are an idiot Fubby You know nada about racing. Nobody in racing has ever heard of you nor do they care what you have to say.

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  70. Anyone notice how Hercules has dropped off the radar?

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  71. Herc is lame but its mild permanent lameness LOL
    I guess the Fubby riding him in the SAFE show is out and I was going to fly there just to watch her ass get dumped!

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  72. From FB

    Hercules the horse I need your help again! My rent (board) is due next month ($380)... SCR is overloaded with bills for spring vaccinations, worming, teeth floating, and feed for 40 horses and trying to find homes for another 12 in foster. The monthly overhead operational costs exceed $10k. Please donate today!


    Hey Fubby isnt that one of your big gripes? A rescue saving a horse then begging for his care $???

    EPIC FAIL FUBBY

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  73. Another FB page gem!!!

    Hercules the horse (Cathy) - After posting my recent blog about a trainer who suggested using a "shock collar" on a horse, I learned that this method was used in the past on Hercules. Gosh I can't imagine why the horse has anger issues, can you? *rolling eyes*


    Now he has anger issues too? Lame and mean! Hmmm isnt that why Wendy took him to the Auction??

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  74. OK, how did she find out Hercules had a shock collar used on him, and how does she know that directly related to how nasty he is?

    I still don't see the 'cruelty' in a shock collar unless abused like anything else out there. People can abuse collars on all animals for gods sakes, should we ban those, too?

    Is it nuclear science to put the collar on multiple times for periods of time without using the shock at first? That's how you get the horse to not associate the shock with anything in particular. You don't come racing out after the shock to take it off, as some horses may figure it out. If one quick button press works, quit at one button press.

    She makes it sound as if shock collars are the source of all mean horses. Couldn't be that they were raised wrong, improperly trained, or just allowed to be a bitch, could it? I would think she would be incredibly familiar with the last technique.

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  75. I think its a ploy to get this months donations Herc is the cash cow for them. SCR has too many horses and from what I see she doesnt find homes nor does she retrain them. Can we say hoarder?

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  76. "Hercules the horse (Cathy) - After posting my recent blog about a trainer who suggested using a "shock collar" on a horse, I learned that this method was used in the past on Hercules. Gosh I can't imagine why the horse has anger issues, can you? *rolling eyes*"

    How convienent. And we just have Fubbly's word on that, right? No one else coming forward to verify that, right?

    Maybe Fubbs has experience wearing a shock collar and it explains her anger issues.

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  77. I just did some google searching and found the ViceBreaker electronic collar for horses. It has several settings and is operated by remote c ontrol for up to, as it claims, a mile. It looks like a cribbing strap.


    re. SAFE show this summer: If Herc is sound and Fubbles rides him as she says she will, believe me, I'll go watch.
    She once boasted on a rec. equestrian group that she was so 'well trained' that her elbows were seemingly glued to her sides, yet there's a photo of her on the VLC site with her elbows winging out like she's doing the funky chicken.

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  78. Anon 2:33 So she claims on one board that she's 'well trained' and on other boards that she's a 'chicken re-rider'? Man, how does she get the following she does? I feel sorry for the people going around spouting her nonsense or directing other hapless innocents to her. And I've seen it. I'm on a message board, and one of the members there often tells others to go to FHOTD. I remember saying that ole fugs ain't what she's cracked up to be, and after that, the poster was, "I don't agree with everything fugly says, but go there for such and such problem..." Of course, this person is the type that if you have a problem, they have to make it into a competition. "Oh yeah, me me me me me me me me." I ignore her for the most part.

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  79. Just an observation. I just visited Fubblies blog and she only has 69 comments and half of them are hers. Whoo Hoo!!!! What a huge crowd there.

    Then I come here and there are 75 comments.

    Well Done BHM, Well Done.

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  80. "Anonymous said...
    Wonder if we can find a shock keyboard for Fubbly.

    **ZAP, ZAP, ZAP***"


    BWAHaaHaaHaa...I laughed so freaking hard tears came!!

    Classic Anon...Just c.l.a.s.s.i.c!!!!

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  81. In response to one of my posts-
    Anon 5:57
    Well, imagine that. The horse world has more drama. Go figure.


    Yeah, and this one contains a mired swamp of legal issues too. One of the reasons I'm not saying much about the details at the moment.

    And what would the horseworld be without drama???? Flubbs wouldn't have much readership or comments, for one...


    As far as the shock collars go, if they were trying to resolve the whole issue before it really became one- why not put up a section of fence and separate the horses? If it came down to it- use hotwire or e-fencing as everyone is calling it. The fence would keep everyone where they belong and things on a positive note.

    Someone had mentioned checking for a retained testicle- that would be a good place to start.

    Anon <3

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  82. LOL, Not that I would condone the use of a shock collar, noe would I ever use one, but I have an electric tape equine fence.......?????

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  83. I have come to the conclusion that Fugly is a work of fiction. We have drama, we have romance (gag!), we have adventure, we have drama (oh, right said that). In all of her threads you can find that.

    It would be amusing if she were not hurting others. I e-mailed the barn where the rider "won" the blue ribbon (using my real name and e-mail address) to give them words of encouragement for the onslaught of stupidness she was experiencing. I did not ask for an explanation, I was not there. I received a grateful word of thanks, they had been bombarded by cowards who used fake names and e-mail addresses. I am still really mad about how that came down.

    (Sorry for the rant!) I am waiting for this fictional story to have a happy ending, where people can make mistakes without being roasted, kids are not being made fun of, un-perfect horses are not picked apart and really bad advise is not being given out!

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  84. Anon,
    That is really good idea, email the barn to express your regret over their troubles. Would you happen to have their email as I would like to write to them.

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  85. I went to the website and used their form, http://www.capstonetrainingstables.com/contact.php. That was the one being abused because people could put fake names and e-mail addresses. My subject was "Please ignore that stupid blog". I was surprised to get a response and it was very nice and grateful to hear that not everyone is a sheeple.

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  86. Lots of really good comments everyone.

    Also, lots of really funny stuff too.


    One thing I am still trying to figure out, according to Fubs, she can fix any ground problem on any horse by growling and backing them. How does this equate to fixing the problem of a horse who is aggressive to other horses in the pasture? I do not get the correlation, and frankly, I don't think a horse would either.

    Gosh, maybe they could have used her infallible training methods with the likes of Storm Cat and some of his progeny who were notorious for being difficult. I am sure that those trainers and handlers never thought of doing that.

    *****major eyeroll****

    Fugnoramus strikes again!

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  87. Gosh, what a nice thing to do, Anon.

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  88. I went to the website too and posted a note for them. Thank you anon who did it first, you gave me the courage to contact them. <3

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  89. I am glad you sent them a note >3 - I really think the situation got blown out of proportion. What gets me is although the rider was technically an adult at 20, can you imagine how hurt she must have been? Those morons don't realize the damage they can inflict and they are so cowardly as not leave their real contact information. Cyber bullying has caused harm and deaths in teenagers - 20 is not so far away from that...

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  90. I'm anon 7:30.

    Oh, tell me about it! At 20, she's still just a baby! Her brain won't be fully developed for another five years. What damage has been caused to her psyche because of the cowards who bashed her who weren't even any part of the show? It wasn't any of their business, nor was it really Fubb's, either!

    I gave them my real name and email. I hope more people email them with warmth and kindness.

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  91. I left a note as well. Thanks Anon for bringing that idea up.

    You know, isn't it strange how easy it is to forget that a little kindness goes a long way?

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  92. To Anon from above(so I don't turn into the copy/past queen...like someone from the past)...I think the fug followers, who do those things ARE hoping to cause others pain. But there has to be something seriously wrong with people who are so unhappy and unsatisfied with their lives that saying horrible things to someone they don't even know makes them feel better or like they are making some kind of a difference.

    They are definitely cowards for not leaving real contact info.

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  93. CCC isnt she amazing? All problems gone w/ a growl and backing. *eyeroll * I hope Herc bites her nasty face off :)

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  94. Sent a nice note :)

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  95. You know guys, I had a thought. Scary indeed, but bare (bear?) with me. Since the Fubb sheep are so quick to tear someone apart, why don't we go behind them and do emotional clean up. Where they hurt, we help heal. We're all adults, it's a shame that most of us can't act like one.

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  96. YHI here..I have to laugh when I think of Fubbs handling a truly aggressive or problematic horse. She is such a WUSSY. She is afraid of most horses and could no more handle a tough one than win a beauty contest. It is obvious by her comment that a growl and backing one up solves all problems that she as never handled a truly tough one. I have seen with my own eyes, a TB stallion at a TB breeding farm that had to be handled by two men with a chain over his nose and one under his jaw, that were hooked to 8' long wooden closet poles, one man on each side to lead him out of his stall. Without that equipment, he would strike and try to savage his handlers.... Lets see her fix THAT one with a growl and backing it up.....LOL.

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  97. I don't care who that stallion was, with behavior like that, he did not deserve to breed any mare.

    On to the growl and backing up. Ha. Hahahaha. Oh boy, that's just a funny mental image. Yeah, for a horse that knows he should have listened the first time, I would use it, and use it for something minor. It's not a cure all. (As we all well know) I wonder how Fubbs would do with an Arabian? I mean, those are pretty smart buggers, and sensitive too. I'd be willing to bet one would have her number in a heartbeat.

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  98. Where or where does she find all that info about the racing industry? Must be communicating with something through that tin foil hat she wears.

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  99. GL - that is hysterical!

    Anon - I am with you on the random acts of kindness post fubbs meltdown.

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  100. To the anon that suggested the clean up detail behind the Fubbly brigade: I am all for it in cases of petty BS and picking on kids. Anyone who gets a email address, post it here and I will.

    And the YHI: Good to see you here. I send continued support and best wishes to go forward in your life. I hope you find it truly amazing now that you have taken out the trash.

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  101. Anonymous wrote:
    You know guys, I had a thought. Scary indeed, but bare (bear?) with me. Since the Fubb sheep are so quick to tear someone apart, why don't we go behind them and do emotional clean up. Where they hurt, we help heal. We're all adults, it's a shame that most of us can't act like one.

    MARCH 25, 2010 9:44 PM


    I like it! It's a productive response rather than a destructive one.

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  102. YHI,
    I'm also glad to see you here. Warm wishes and, judging from the photos, your farm looks beautiful.

    You are so correct about aggressive horses. Fugs has no idea how bad it can get. There are very aggressive studs who have to be handled with the utmost caution. I do know of studs that behave the way you have described and would have no problems with attacking and killing a handler. I use carry a shovel incase one broke the stall door.

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  103. YHI,
    I forgot to mention that any form of confrontational training with these types of studs would put you in the hospital. I wouldn't recommend the growling and backing approach.

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  104. Befor I could condem the stallion who needed the closet poles, I would want to know more about him and his situation. When was this behavior during the breeding season? What was his turn out and exercise situation like? What about his companionship situation? Did he get to go out with other horses or was he in isolation?
    I think I would get difficult too if I was kept in isolation, in a 15X15 foot room, and only taken out for sex with strangers.

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  105. From Fubblies blog today:

    This Account Has Been Suspended


    Bet it ain't from too much traffic. Bwhahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

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  106. Colour me stupid but why would anyone want to keep a mean, aggressive horse? I mean I feel for the horses that have been abused and really feel like they need every chance to recover(as far as shock collars go, I just feel that not many people can use them correctly to help) but there comes a point when it is apparent that the horse does not even want to be a pasture pet (or stuck in a stall). When dogs are like that they are euthanized. How is a horse different?

    I hope someone who does not know what they are doing with an aggressive horse does not 'growl and back it'. That advise is an accident waiting to happen. Having been bitten and shaken by an abused mare (luckily, I turned her but it took 6 + months), I can't even imagine what she would of done if I growled at her. I would have had a hoof print on my forehead.

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  107. Fubb is getting her TB info from Katie at SCR who is a borderline hoarder IMO

    Seems she has pissed off someone w/ computer skills LMAO Get her TG.

    Im all for the positive and do know that Wendy (Herc) was contacted in such a manner She was only concerned that Fubb brought her children into it as she had lost one of her twins. Beyond that her attitude is who cares what that nut case does... She had never heard of Fubb.

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  108. From her old blog

    Friday, March 26, 2010
    On and off again!

    I sincerely apologize for the blog being on and off like a light switch at fuglyblog.com! We are taking steps to resolve the unreliability and it should be much better next week.

    Last Chance Corral has alleged to me that there is some sort of federal investigation having to do with Twice Out East but has provided no actual proof of any such investigation. Obviously, I would edit or remove any blog entry if asked to do so in writing by any law enforcement agency, but if I let the Presidents of rescues tell me to take down posts, plenty of you might still be getting scammed by some of the faux rescues we have exposed in the past. So it's my policy to ignore such requests unless they come from an official source, and in three years of the blog, I've never had a single request of that type.

    At any rate - Happy Friday if you're here looking for the Fugly Blog! I hope we'll be back up soon at our regular location, but in the meantime, tell me what YOU are most looking forward to (horse-related) this summer!

    Posted by fuglyhorseoftheday at 9:19 AM 0 comments

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  109. I contacted Capstone as well. Good idea Anon, and also a good idea to maybe keep track of Fubs various victims.

    Her account is supended again? BBBBBWWWWWHHHHHAAAAAAA! Whoever is doing it is my hero!


    I defintely use the growling and backing up method for certain things, but it certainly isn't right for everything situation or for every horse. You know, kind of like most training tools or methods.

    Hi YHI, glad to see you again, hope all is well with you these days.

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  110. That was supposed to be "right for every situation." Proofing fail on my part.

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  111. "plenty of you might still be getting scammed by some of the faux rescues we have exposed in the past. "

    OMG, I think I just burst a control cell in my brain.

    BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


    Oh, that's FUNny.
    peculiar.

    Fumbles is the "one true media" of horse rescue.

    wow. not.

    Yes, indeed, CCC. You can't make one general statement about training, other than "it depends on the situation".
    and the animal, and the trainer...
    etc.etc. ad nauseum.

    Darcy Jayne, that story made my skin crawl.
    Gawd, the lack of Idon'tKnowWhat, in some people.

    yuch.

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  112. Yes, DJ's story is really disturbing. Bad owners are all too common.

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  113. From Twitter

    # FYI latest explanation from web host: Your sites are using much resources, RAM 50-68%. They want me to optimize my scripts? Have NO clue. about 1 hours ago via web


    Bwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhaaaa Sure Fubb sure...

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  114. I'm not a FHOTD fan or anything, but as someone that has a Master's in Animal Behavior, specifically equine (focusing on cribbing) I have to agree with her on this.

    Shock collars are not good for someone that doesn't know how to use them correctly, and that goes for any species. They don't work for correcting stereotyped behaviors like cribbing and I highly doubt it would work for any other behavior. Mostly because people don't understand how to use the collars correctly. The shock MUST be applied IMMEDIATELY at the start/first sign of the behavior. Are you going to be watching your horse 24/7 ready to shock at a moments notice? Doubtful. If you don't shock quickly enough it's just confusing to the poor horse, who's been fighting with another horse for 5 minutes now but thinks maybe he shouldn't have flicked his tail just a second ago.

    There are plenty of safe methods to introduce a new horse to an established herd. Making sure you have safe pastures and that your run-in sheds have large enough openings. Gradual introductions via adjoining pastures. An extra feed bucket for every 4-5 horses in the herd.

    Shock collar is absolutely not the way to go. The everyday person doesn't know much about the principles of psychology and it's just going to turn into the horse being shocked for no reason.

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  115. "I sincerely apologize for the blog being on and off like a light switch at fuglyblog.com! We are taking steps to resolve the unreliability and it should be much better next week.

    Last Chance Corral has alleged to me that there is some sort of federal investigation having to do with Twice Out East but has provided no actual proof of any such investigation. Obviously, I would edit or remove any blog entry if asked to do so in writing by any law enforcement agency, but if I let the Presidents of rescues tell me to take down posts, plenty of you might still be getting scammed by some of the faux rescues we have exposed in the past. So it's my policy to ignore such requests unless they come from an official source, and in three years of the blog, I've never had a single request of that type."

    Her words in the old location.

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  116. I think the instance the the Q/A was pretty specific and that is the direction JG's advice went too.

    I don't beleive that anyone here believes that a shock collar is a cure-all for any misbehavior, nor has anyone's comments here implied as much Anon 1:30pm.

    It all boils down to common sense really. If someone wants to be abusive, they don't need shock collars, people have been using ropes, baseball bats, chains and any other thing they can get their hands on to abuse horses forever.

    On the other hand, we have people who believe that even the mildest of bits are abusive and cannot comprehend WHY a finished bridle horse needs to be ridden in a curb. They bitch because people ride with spurs, or without protective boots on their horses. There is massive debate between whether a horse should wear shoes or go barefoot. Some people believe in grass hay some in alfalfa. Some feed high powered grains, some won't.

    EVERYTHING about horses is debateable.

    I fail to see how the use of a shock collar on a horse that is aggressive to another horse is so complicated. If you can comprehend the 3-5 second rule...then you can comprehend how to use any form of discipline.

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  117. Exactly what I was trying to say BEC, but you said it so much better.

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  118. "Shock collars are not good for someone that doesn't know how to use them correctly, and that goes for any species. "

    yeah, I know.

    Substitute anything else you like, in place of shock collars, too.

    sigh.


    JG didn't SAY that it was for the madding crowd. But the madding crowd uses it anyway.

    The Doors song is starting up in the old head again. Cruelty makes me think of "People are Strange.. when you're a stranger.. faces look ugly.."

    never mind.

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  119. Gees GL send be back to my teen years

    "when you're alone
    Women seem wicked when you're unwanted
    Streets are uneven when you're down

    When you're strange
    Faces come out of the rain
    When you're strange
    No one remembers your name
    When you're strange
    When you're strange
    When you're strange

    Anyone remember why we thought he was a genius?

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  120. LOL, we often get talent and hot confused when our hormones are raging.

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  121. kaede, you're underestimating the effect of the music.

    Read the librettos for many operas and they are just as lame. He did have a talent for vivid imagery. One of my faves for shudder factor is from "Riders on the Storm" where he sings "his brain is squirming like a toad". What an explicit evocation of a serial killer on the hunt.

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  122. I have around 30 yrs experience training and re-training horses so they will stay homed and safe.

    I have used shock collars on a few rescue dogs for aggressive behavior towards other animals with great success. I also have electric fencing to keep my horses off the permanent fence which I shock myself on regularly by accident. With the electric fence there is always the chance that a animal will entangle into it a get repeatedly shocked which would be very cruel. While this has never happened I have worried that it may.

    I think that a controlled shock of a horse collar would be the most humane negative reinforcement to use.

    The gelding that I am thinking of using it on has become very dangerous to me, himself, horses and dogs. I believe he may have fractured my arm today.

    Here is our story:
    I bought him at 7 months at auction. He was already gelded and showed no signs of abuse. I pastured him with my mares and another supposed gelding (he was listed as a gelding on coggins but had never dropped till later so was gelded at 3 1/2 when he finally ,dropped (2) 1/2 testicles). This small herd babied Dandy (the now problem horse). I noticed that even the bitchy mares let him have his way and start bossing them early. I only did some ground work with him which was uneventful. His hooves have broken off well naturally and I only touch them up occasionally with the rasp. He is kicky about his back feet and I use a the clinton anderson stick (forgot what he calls it) with the whip like part removed. When he has tried to kick me I pop him on the butt and with him had an issue of him wanting to retaliate instead of having respect, so had to hit him several times for him coming after me.

    My timing is good but he is different.

    Fast forward,,, I separated from my husband and moved my horses. at the new place out 14 horses 5 which he was raised by/with he could not go with any of them. He would go after the rest of the horses and the one gelding who was gelded late and had stallion characteristics that loved him before the move now hated him and was the only horse he was afraid of.

    I have now moved them again and prior to this move the other gelding busted past me through the gate and attacked him. I literally beat him off of him and he was really beat up bad. He was shaking and I had to hydro his abrasions and bruises several days. He seemed very grateful and gave me no trouble.

    Since this move he has been separated from the other horses with a 1 acre paddock in between. He went through the hot wire last night and I haltered him to lead him back and he did not want to go. He reared and pawed at me, I wacked him on the butt and he kicked out. I then tried to lunge him, have done this successfully before. To make him work and not give him time to misbehave.
    He then charged me and veered off and kicked both feet, nailing me in the arm. It cut me also and I started bleeding. I ran in and grabbed a towel wrapped my arm, and caught him again, I fought with him finally getting him back in at one point he got away and my bloody towel flew to the ground. He came back and smelled the towel and charged me again which I got a couple hits in that kept him from I believe trying to kill me. Too weird.....

    I really am afraid of him though and don't feel safe getting in the round pen with him. My arm is hurting so bad right mow just typing this, so if I dont go to ER tonight I will in the morning.
    He is a good looking horse with so so confirmation. I want to sale him but his chances at staying homed now are slim if I don't fix this, Pus I don't want him to hurt someone. This is why I am thinking about the shock collar as it seems the safest way to stop his attacks.
    The way he acted about my towel really was unsettling. He has no pain issues that I can tell, he has been on native grass and hay and a 12 protein, 6 fat pellet which is low carb also. He has never been sick. Anyway I would appreciate helpful comments and/or anyone with same experience. His behavior is a first for me.

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  123. "Now, Natural Horsemanship Defenders – PLEASE explain to me how an e-collar is NATURAL?"

    B_U_L_L_S_H_I_T.

    This is NOT Natural Horsemanship and has NOTHING to do with it. REAL N. H. is based on stress and pain free communication. Don't be so ignorant to mess up things.

    If you can't see the difference between N. H. and common idiotism you are painfully blind.

    Someone using such things as shock collars is the absolute OPPOSITE of the natural horsemanship way, is nothing but a common criminal, animal abuser who should seriously be shot.

    I can teach a horse anything, solve any so called "problem", and without ever using any force. I don't even use bits, bridles, spurs and other forcing devices, only communication based upon equine ethology. I worked with "agressive" horses even ones who tries to kill me, and I still never used violence, only patience and body language. THIS IS what is the true natural horsemanship (without any trademarks).


    A natural equine communication expert

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  124. If shock collars are considered humane, then I see no reason not to use them on human off spring. Could end disruptive behavior in schools.

    Wonder how many teachers would like to have a console of buttons.

    The point still is, if they are humane, which obviously many believe, then why not. How many dogs, horses, etc. behave better than the teenagers we see on the streets?

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  125. "Normal herd behavior" would not naturally have geldings living with mares. Nor would it have random gatherings of horses of different ages from different training backgrounds and learned experiences from previous living human created conditions.

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