Yeah, my brother speaks and reads fluent Mandarin. (He has passed the highest translation test given by the Chinese). And he has told me the translation equivalent to some of our city names. Pretty funny. The funniest one he ever told me was about a store in Chengdu. It had signs posted all over, in English, very big and neon - "Chengdu Tekramrepus! Biggest American style grocery store in China!" He was with a professor of Russian languages at the time who thought "Tekramrepus" must have had some sort of Russian/slavic derivatives and was trying to figure it out. Until my brother realized it was "Supermarket!" spelled backwards!
Best Comment on there! On the “smart ass side” this is going to mean all dictionaries are going to have to be updated, and read that a “Pinto” is any horse except an Appaloosa or a mule, and “some may have, or used to have, large patches of a contrasting color.”
BYC Assoc come one... come all... register them Back Yard Colts!!
Oh Fubby you have slid so far into the shit you cant breathe! All that preaching was for not. You are the person you crowed about LMAO
I didn’t want to flat out name this one because I haven’t heard anything bad about them, either. Nor have I heard anything good. They seem to have somewhat materialized out of the thin air and gotten VERY big VERY fast … which makes me VERY nervous.
Im making a comment
Then why even post you dipshit? Oh yeah because your BYC assoc wasnt embraced like you wanted it to be. I guess you needed a new post to divert your stupid followers? LOL But someone will figure this out and post the name of the rescue and the witchhunt will be on. Fubb will look like an idiot again when this place turns out to be legit. Or maybe she is jealous of this guy?
Fugs said.... "You know, I admit I was one of those people who had been in some AQHA barns growing up and had gotten that attitude that Pinto, Buckskin, Palomino, etc. weren’t “real shows,” but I admit I’ve had to revise my attitude."
How convienent when BYC is hitting the show ring, huh? Guess Fubbly finally figured out that the AQHA judges would chew her up and spit her out.
Interesting about her little comment of "You are completely within your rights to tell someone that you think they’re an idiot – this is America. But tell them once, and don’t continue to harass them or make threats, or you may find yourself in a heap of trouble. If you aren’t sure where the line is, stay away from it altogether and keep your comments IN the comments."
I am there with you both, Heather and WIHaH. I must say that most ranches in the west have barbed wire. I grew up with it. When we put in a new fence line we tied white rags to the top strands at intervals around the whole pasture. We then led the horses around so they'd get an idea of the placing. The white rags stayed up for a long time before they were taken down. Not once did our 12 horses get injured.
Fugly has no idea what it's like to live the life of a rancher.
The thing that gets me is that in the pic she put up of the fence, it looks like a white hot wire is across the top, and it isn't loose at all. Not exactly ideal, but not the most dangerous in the world.
Such rage in fugly's typing...Wow...I cannot even imagine going through life that pissed off.
As for the 'bob wire'....we've always had it and probably always will. I guess fugly and her bunch will just have to think I am an ignorant POS and don't deserve to own horses.
Agree with Anons 8:35 & 10:23! Fubb is a total and complete hypocrite. She skewered plenty of people for their barn blindness about their own horses, and went on about stuff like the Blue Eyed Horse registation. But now since she sees some benefit for herself, it must be good. Wow! A triple registered Krazy Kolor Horse! If she had any honesty about her at all, she would be posting about her own horse and her own behavior on her blog.
While it's fun that Pinto will offer more shows for everyone to attend, what's the point of a horse registry that almost every horse on the planet qualifies to be in? If I were an owner of a Pinto, I'd be annoyed with the PtHA. It seems like they could sponsor open shows without diminishing the qualifications for Pinto-hood.
I am with you BEC, always had barb wire , likely always will.It must be maintained and kept tight.I also don't have it in pressure areas. As most farmer/ranchers will tell you small areas are better to be panels or rails as they are easier for stock to see , but I somehow doubt ole fugs is up to stringing hot tape over a mile to fence a quarter section , far less pay the power bill. Horse can and will hurt themselves on any and all kinds of fencing .Can we all say degloving injury? hppens more often with smooth wire. Funny the way that silly old bird hates appies and barb wire I am surprised I haven't been a star on her blog. Evil laugh...
Yes, I've always wondered about fencing and expense. 250 acres is expensive enough to fence, but some of larger places are going to be impossible to fence. As perviously mentioned, the electric bill alone is prohibitive let alone expecting it to be fenced with wood.
I remember getting into it with fugly one other time about ranches and keeping horses in barbed wire...She fully expected people on ranches to put up hot tape using solar chargers. I tried to explain to her that in pastures that are 200-300 acres, or more, the horses really aren't interested in messing with the fences. She was incapable of understanding.
There are most assuradly rules that a person needs to heed when keeping horses in pastures with barbed wire -
#1-check your fences regularly and be prepared to repair any broken wires, posts or sagging wires immediately.
#2-If your smaller pastures are fenced in barbed wire, make sure that the horses you put together get along. Even if you have to alternate turn out time.
#3-Don't use barbed wire in pressure spots-i.e-around water tanks, coming into corrals or as cross fencing.
#4-As Anon said, hanging white or bright colored tape or rags for new horses or if you make any changes in the fencing position is also a good idea.
Essentially, it really boils down to common sense. Sure, it's easy for fugly to mandate what other people should do, but since she has never actually owned a horse property or even seemed to have actually been financially responsible for providing 'safe' fencing for her horses...it's just more of her telling people do as I say, not as I am capable of doing myself. LMAO!!
I'm still laughing at her sudden 'love' for the PtHA. I guess that blue ribbon the VLC won in his GREEN Horse WP class, really went to her head. Pinto to me has ALWAYS meant a horse with spots and for the association to open their books to just about anything except Mules or Draft horses essentially means they have just become another registry for anything and everything.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Explication of this Amendment:
(Absolute) Freedom of Speech and Press
The Constitution does protect the freedom of speech of every citizen, and even of non-citizens — BUT ONLY FROM RESTRICTION BY THE CONGRESS- (MY EMPHISIS) (and, by virtue of the 14th Amendment, by state legislatures, too). There are plenty of other places where you could speak but where speech can and is suppressed. For example, freedom of speech can be and often is restricted in a work place, for example: employers can restrict your right to speak in the work place about politics, about religion, about legal issues, even about Desperate Housewives. The same restrictions that apply to the government do not apply to private persons, employers, or establishments. For another example, the government could not prohibit the sale of any newspaper lest it breech the freedom of the press. No newsstand, however, must carry every paper against its owners' wishes.
I am always surprised that FHotD makes this mistake. THERE IS NO FREEDOM OF GENERAL FREEDOM OF SPEECH GUARANTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION. Only that the Congress won't make laws limiting speech. It is NOT the same thing. If people make hate or threatening speech that is not protected speech under the Constitution.
FHotD "I removed the last name only because some of the people who read this blog apparently do not have any self-control. Maybe if I make it harder to find people who are featured, then only the smart people – the ones capable of writing a coherent e-mail and expressing their legally protected opinion about the person’s behavior – will manage to track them down and the immature/stupid who think it is appropriate to threaten people (it’s not, and it’s not legal, and I won’t protect you if you do it) won’t have the necessary problem-solving skills to figure out how to make contact, and we can avoid some drama. You are completely within your rights to tell someone that you think they’re an idiot – this is America. But tell them once, and don’t continue to harass them or make threats, or you may find yourself in a heap of trouble."
I just finished reading the comments. Back in the day the rule of thumb was one horse per 2.5 acres of high quality pasture, with one water trough per horse. Most folks had AT LEAST 10 acres fenced with "bob" wire. The only injury I ever saw was when a hunter went through a 5 board wooden fence. A rutting stag got into their field and frightened the horses. Both the stag and the horse preferred jumping the wood rather than the wire. The horse couldn't jump as well as the stag.
Looks like fugs is picking on another kid again. Actually, either fugs put on a brand new pair of bitch panties, or she's hitting the mean stages of menopause. No wonder the only people who like her are sycophants.
Same anon as above. I just want to ask, in that pic she posted of Heide's face, was fugs the one who blocked out the guys face and put "<---- I'm with stupid" on it? Man, that is childish and vile.
Kaede-It does sound like something happened. Since when does fugs NOT post any and all personal information she can get her hands on about her victims? And now two times in a row?
She has said over and over that she will always name names and go the extra mile to 'out' people she feels have done wrong.
Apparently whatever happened made her get her panties in a bunch, cause she is in rare nasty form.
YHI here, Ol Fubbly is CRAZED about Barbed Wire... ABSOLUTELY CRAZED..... I had 4 strands of barbed wire along a 4 lane highway on one of my properties. It had hot wire on top. She was constantly squawking about the barbed wire. No horse was ever hurt on it, yet she was always going ON about it. I'm sorry but it was along a roadway, a very busy roadway, and hot tape just did not seem to be a safe alternative, especially given the issues I had on that property keeping the hot tape hot, and I did not have 10 grand to replace it with woven wire at the time. I had 5 intact male horses in the pen and she FREAKED out when one got a bite mark and she started screeching that the wire had cut him. It was a BITE that scraped his hair off...Hello colts play HARD and bite each others necks, nothing deeper on him than hair and a bit of hide scraped off. But she just KNEW the wire had taken a toll.... What an IDIOT. The worst injuries I have even seen were on smooth wire and board fencing. I have had barbed wire on places I have lived and while I would never install it for horse corrals, it is use-able as a perimeter fence providing there are no other horses on the other side. Fubbly's problem is she sees horses as giant kitties, and there are more folks in the world that see them as livestock. Her views on horse keeping takes a farm animal, aka livestock, and turns it into the most labor intensive "pet" you can have. In her world, anyone who treats a horse like livestock is to be reviled, ridiculed, and the pitchforked mob should come after them and hang them from the nearest tree....
You can only paint yourself into a corner so many times...... eventually the snark fades and you see a very sad little girl, most likely molested, who couldn't have a pony as a kid, was made fun of in school. So she vowed to make it big one day and punish all those along the way who were pretty and had a horse. The song by Jewel with the lyric " Do you hate her because she's pieces of you" comes to mind.
But with no formal education and no rich spouse it's pretty hard to promote a Stallion and make it big. I just read the other day that campaigning an FEI dressage horse for one years costs about $100,000 and these are not even stallions. I doubt HI is shelling out 100k a year to fubly. I am all about the American Dream but those come true for hard working humble people who dig in and hang on nad never give up. Fugly just steps on others to deflect negative attention on her, hoping that the dream just falls in her lap one day. I am not worried though Karma always has a way of righting the world, and it's usually at the most perfect time =).
I wonder if HI likes the fact one of their writers cusses like a truck driver? I think she is on the verge of nutting up. There are quite a few in the process of giving her some grief and it is about time. Me thinks her tiara is slightly askew and is gonna be knocked off her swelled head.
I hate woven wire fences. We put it in and had nothing but problems, including one foal getting it's muzzle cut by a protruding wire, another horse getting a foot caught, and one horse that went through it. The stuff breaks into sharp daggers, and really cut the horse up.
Relatively inexperienced person here. WTF is wrong with the two videos Fugs embedded in her blog today? I see two videos that feature horses walking very carefully, an adult right there to grab a falling kid if necessary, and another adult leading the horse.
Yeah, nasty things could still happen, but the danger level in those two videos strikes me as very low.
Sometimes I think Fubs doesn't understand risk assessment very well. Yes, there are risks around horses. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. She, by default, assumes that people taking risks she wouldn't take are stupid. She can't imagine that people might have different views of the risk. And that somehow horse owners might actually know their horses better than some freak on the internet.
I say this as someone who has gambled on a lot of decisions in her life and that has taken risks most people told me I was stupid for taking. Most of those turned out to be very good choices in the long run, and the few that didn't I took my lumps like an adult. It's a *little* different with kids involved, but just because Fubs says something is risky and wrong doesn't make it so.
Back to picking on babies again, is she? And no, the horse does not need to gain weight. The horse's weight is much healthier than an obese halter horse, who is a case of founder just waiting to happen. And it has to pee...
I notice she didn't post names and numbers like she usually does. Got spanked for that did we?!
Adult standing by to grab kid, old safe horse being led by an adult, how frightening! And what about letting kids ride those little trikes...why they could get hurt in so many ways. We must outlaw tricycles now!
Fubb is speaking out like a perfect parent. In the real world we learn that there's no such thing, and we listen to childless people's advice with our tongue in our cheek. Why is it that people feel entitled to the strongest opinions when they know nothing of the subject?!
Good Grief. I let me daughter ride on leadline with a spotter until she was able to ride and control the pony she was on. She wears a helmet and is in a nice soft arena. The horses she rides are old been there done that type of horses. She is more pampared and safer then I was as a kid. We got the mean Sheltand ponies that liked to run under branches and into fence posts. But that taught us at a early age to respect the darn things. Horses are dangerous no matter age or size. Having a good teacher and respect for the horse is major important to safety.
Kestrel - thanks for the note on the horse's weight. To me, he looks just like the 20yo+ working QH that neighbors let me ride (bareback, hackamore, cross-country, helmet-what-helmet?) when I was in my teens. A bit on the old side and too smart to kick up a fuss with a baby on his back.
Hey! Not all of us that don't want kids think we're perfect parents! Some of us don't have kids because we're damn sure we'll be awful parents.
I do, occasionally, have reactions to parents and how they're handling a situation, but that doesn't mean I think I'd do any better. I've done more than enough animal training to know that kid raising has got to be an insane thing for anyone to take on.
oh give me a break!!!!! I have kids, grew up riding double with my parents at the age of two. Still alive! So are my kids, although they do wear helmets, but not when I'm ponying them around with a second adult walking alongside, seriously overreacting there. And why the heck does an 18 month old need boots if they don't have their feet in the stirrups. Go find yourself a job Fugly.
So...what I'm wondering is if you even want a kid that small (toddler) to have stirrups. Are they coordinated enough to not just get stuck in them at that age?
Anon 331 said: why the heck does an 18 month old need boots if they don't have their feet in the stirrups.
Dress up.
For Fugly it's all about appearances, not reality. It wasn't like that when I started reading her blog, it was about conformation and making good decisions about horsekeeping. Now it's about conforming to Fugly and her point of view.
Fugs posted a vid of a woman riding a 20 month old that was posted two years ago and her followers are already attacking her as if it was filmed and posted today. Yee-ikes.
We love people like you Fiona! As parents we usually welcome input. It's the overly judgmental and inflexible people who drive us nuts.
As for riding young stock, once again it's all in what you do with them. I don't think it hurts a youngster to be backed and walk around. You can ruin an older horse just as easily by doing too much too fast.
When I was in college I was grazing my project horse - a 3 year old that we were expected to break spring semester. Some woman (probably a fugly follower -- if there was such a thing as a blog back when I was in college!) came buy and gave me a lecture about how I shouldn't be breaking a 3 year old.
Look, I was a 20 year old college student at a land grant institution w/ attached veterinary college. Even if she was right (and given the amount of activity we did with the horses I'm not convinced) there was no way I was going to stand up to professors of veterinary medicine and tenured faculty to say "gee, I wanted to take this class but some anonymous woman walking by the front of the farm said what you're doing is wrong, so please don't flunk me but I'm not going to finish my project."
I mean, really, WTF do these people who come out of the blue to lecture people *think* is going to happen? Very RARELY will the target of the lecture turn around and fall all over the lecturer with a grateful smile. It's the whole honey vs. vinegar thing and vinegar almost never works.
I'm the anon 3:56 and I agree with you two posters, I was just shocked that her followers fell in on that girl on a video she posted two years ago. I don't even think she had comments until flubs posted it. And the girl was just walking the horse, she wasn't asking him to do any more than what he would do in the field and she wasn't a large girl either. I hope I didn't come across wrong when I said that earlier post.
I've just been reading today's postings and I'm speechless...almost...Did Fugly really scold her followers for creating DRAMA? I must have missed something :)
FHotD likes to bash folks who are getting an Equine degree. She likes to bash folks who buy a horse who are ignorant of what horses need. She likes to bash people who only learn from other back yard/non degreed instructors, she bashes people people who learn from winning trainers.
FHotD doesn't have a bell curve of techniques that work, she has a bell spike. Only the methods that she approves of (No top trainer or equine degree to sully her reputation) are appropriate, humane, and successful. That's why she keeps sending BYC to smaller, less competitive shows.
Fiona-I wasn't criticizing people for choosing not to have kids, just criticizing people like fugly who 'brag' about making the choice to not have kids and then takes great delight in bashing others for what they do with their kids.
Yea, some parents do some pretty dumb things. Sometimes both the parents and the kids are lucky to survive, but I really didn't see anything in either of those videos to indicate 'bad parenting dujoure'-as fuggles likes to call it.
I am just getting back into the horse world after a 10 year break. I could not believe what I was reading when I first found the "fugly" blog. In theory, I get where she is coming from....but she is a hardcore PETA/HSUS whack job. The scary thing is that people take her seriously. I have read more comments about how she wishes the government would regulate people's personal lives and what they do with their animals. It is sickening the way she attacks people as well.
I just read one moron in her comments complaining that someone breeds chickens and goats!! Are you kidding me? Last I checked there wasn't an excess of chickens and goats filling up the shelters...and some people...you know, uh eat them? I've never seen a more moronic bunch of people. Glad this site exists...I was getting nervous that the whole horse industry was going the way of Fugly.
One quick note, there is a very big reason Equine Liability Insurance places a minimum age limit on riding (usually 7 years old, sometimes 10 in my experience)
It's mostly because even a minor fall from the height of a pony or small horse (or higher) can cause shaken baby syndrome in children under 7.
Not defending Fugly, or attacking anyone here who let tiny kids ride...just saying that there is actually a proven medical reason that some people go a bit nutty on the under 6 set riding period, let alone without a helmet.
Now, I know everyone has stories about what they did as babies etc, but do remember that shaken baby syndrome can have minor acute effects that compound over time and continued injury to the brain; one fall with minor damage makes the child more prone to further damage.
Well, speaking as a parent...of course you do your darndest to keep them safe. However, kids also need to be exposed and desensitized to stimuli. It's a balancing act all around. Coddled children often grow up with a distorted view of the world, either seeing everything as dangerous or not realizing anything is dangerous.
I agree with GL, I like to start kids at 7 to 9 years old, however my parents rode into the wilderness with four kids ranging from 2 to 7, riding the pack mules. We were led in on the string, and the stock was trail wise. We were born around stock though, and had a built in sense of caution and a firm grasp of how they thought. We did not believe that horses fart rainbows. We also knew each animal as a distinct individual.
I see less wrong with sitting a small child on a nice horse with an adult standing there to pull the kid off, than I do with putting the same kid on the school bus.
*Snicker* I actually knew a little girl, 2 1/2, who fell and broke her arm. Twice. After every test in the universe they discovered the mom had never ever once let the kid's padded butt hit the floor...so the kid had no idea of how to fall down without breaking something! Rather like stall raised colts, who don't know how to step over a twig.
I think this question has been answered best by the two phrases, 'Risk Assessment' 'Balancing Act'. It's a parents' job to teach our babies to live without us and protect them from hurt in the process. In the end, a pair of attentive parents is the best safety equipment any child can have. We all have treasured pictures of our Babies on Pony's, with Mom standing right there in a protective stance. This is just another example of Cathy Atkinson playing 'self proclaimed' Judge and Jury, and screwing it up, as usual...Just My Opinion :)
And it really did crack me up that none of the fubb followers seem to recognize a horse that's gotta gooooo! Leaping to conclusions is ridiculous based on a short film segment. I guess the worst of the abuse must be solved if that's the baddest thing she can find on the net...
It's a shame that the organizations like HSUS give all rescues a bad name, and make people quit donating altogether. I did not know that HSUS did not run shelters. They are overpaid lobbyists. The dude running it is drawing down a cool quarter mill. Every state already has legislation on the books. It needs to be enforced, and there need to be shelter for the animals in need...or help for the stressed owners.
Cathy's 'outing' of other rescues, that may be receiving funds her rescues want, has done nothing good for the horses. It's simply made people afraid to donate to anyone, and afraid to volunteer because they might be attacked. Sad deal.
Ok confession time. When my son was 1 1/2 to 2 yo, I let him bounce around the house on one of those bouncy balls with a handle. He whacked his head on a desk, got a boo boo and cried...the next time, I made him go outside on the grass in the middle of lawn. Still no helmet though. He has managed to live to 10 yo so far with me as negligent mother. (Dare I say he is the best thing I have ever done in my life?)
I am ready for my punishment and to be ostracized...
As a parent of a 4 1/2 and a 6 1/2 year old, living on a farm, I routinely find that apparently I seem to allow my kids to do things that most of my fellow parents are horrified by. Stripping naked and rolling in mud holes until every orifice is caked? Check. Playing in the tall grass in the backfield, within calling distance of the house, without me being able to see them. Check. Lead-lining them on mellow pony/horse. Check. But I do find that many of my fellow parent's seem A LOT more protective of their kids than me. But then again, these same parents also remark at how independent and easy to do things with my kids are, when they are over at my house because they are too scared to let their 7 year old come to play without "being watched constantly because somebody might snatch her." And btw, this is from a mother who has known me since high school. And we live in a small town of 3000 people. My nearest neighbor is a 1/2 mile away. Last murder in our town? At least 5 years ago. I don't recall anybody ever being kidnapped...But, it's her call. And she won't let that little girl out of her sight! I started my oldest at about 5 with me riding another horse and leading her on her pony. When she was old enough to be aware to not just "fall off" because she was mad or done or whatever. But both of them I started at geez, probably 3, sitting on the horse while being lead around, me along side. My 4 year old has now graduated to me leading but not standing next to the horse. And yes, both of them have fallen off. A couple times actually. But, to me, that's part of learning to ride! You gotta fall off...And then get back on. I was riding my own pony on trail rides (my parent's had a dude ranch at the time) by the time I was 4. Actually doing more unsupervised riding - and WITHOUT A HELMET - than I let my own kids do. My dad said I was a better rider than almost all the teenage girls that came to stay. Also, I am a strong believer to start kids without a saddle, or at least not stirrups. I think getting a little foot hung up in stirrups is potentially WAY more dangerous than falling off. But again, I make the crazy assumption that my kids ARE going to fall off at some point, despite my best intentions. So I try and manage the situation for the safest way to fall off as possible.
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On the shaken Baby syndrome, my understanding is that the major risk is the height...so a mini is probably not posing a major risk (although having seen some of those mini-trots...LOL)
Also, on the helmets...I really believe that "we never wore helmets" is not a very good response to all the recent research (last 5-10 years) illustrating the cumulative effects of even small concussions, and how much of that can be reduced with an approved helmet. I mean sure, people over 50 survived pre-helmet...except the people who died. Or still suffer the effects of premature dementia or brain damage.
In that way, I understand Fugly's perspective on kids without helmets. It's just such an easy safeguard to take.
You won't catch me telling anyone to put a helmet on their kid though, not unless they ask my advice (or post on a public forum.) They are your kids.
I grew up like PrairieFarmer described, getting dirty, being "supervised" by the neighborhood kids as we spent hours digging through ponds and sloughs and generally getting filthy and scraped up. My dad's attitude as a microbiologist/genetics major was that the more antigens you built up, the better. But when bike helmets became available, we all had 'em.
People are right, about balancing risk. In industry, we talk about reasonable precautions and due diligence. The law dictates much of that, with respect to worker safety, but there are always new situations and gray area to contend with. You do your due diligence to determine what reasonable precautions bring your risk down to manageable levels.
I agree that there's really no reason these days not to put a helmet on a kid's head for a lot of activities - like riding horses. Just like now that cars have seatbelts there's no reason not to use them. Just because my great-grandma survived a car wreck without one doesn't mean it's smart for me to forego using them. That said, the videos Fugly posted don't deserve anything like the vitriol she's dumped on them.
Somebody thought the horse in the first was a stallion expecting to cover a mare? WTF? Even my first thought (I'm a relative newbie) is "the poor guy looks like he needs to pee". He sure as heck doesn't look like he's expecting an interlude with a willing mare.
I commented on the first video's YouTube page, and have been being lectured ever since about the great and wise Fugly, how much she knows about horses, how skinny that poor horse is, etc.
As far as I can tell, everything about how "great" Fugly is originated with her.
Don't you just wonder how many of those messages are posted by her, under different screen names?
Of course I put a helmet on my kids. Times have changed, and it is due diligence. Too many people expect a helmet to solve everything though, and that's actually more scary. I've seen parents watching an out of control kid on a jump course, and they think the kid is going to be okay if they fall...not! A top rider was killed in our area at a world class 3 day event. Wearing a helmet. Horse slipped and fell, poor rider landed too hard.
I really don't think the parent walking beside the horse ready to yank them off need worry about it though, any more than I would fasten the kid's seatbelt for them to sit in the car and eat lunch while it's not moving.
When kids start riding they need to learn without stirrups. They learn balance, can't get hung up and dragged, and will never make the amateur mistake of riding the leather to the ground if the saddle slips. It's just insecure enough for them to learn a healthy respect for the power of the horse.
Oh, and really be careful about the boots you get your kids. There are a few brands that look like cowboy boots but have nasty thick rubber tread soles that are guaranteed to hang up. I have mentioned it to parents, and when I politely explain my reasoning they are all over it. As parents, we know better than anyone that we don't know everything. Being attacked by a shrill idiot on a mission is guaranteed to grate on our nerves!
The shaken baby syndrome is completely different from one fall. Lots of parents try to claim that they didn't shake their child to death, he fell off a bunk bed, but an autopsy says differntly. The injuries are different. Not that I'm condoning helmetless kids riding.
I wish we would stay away from political parties on this blog. I've enjoyed this blog because it doesn't attack like fugly does, anti Christian, anti fat, anti redneck. I'm a conservative, grew up with conservatives, actively participate in conservative politics. I know absolutely no one as hateful as Fugly. Contrary to popular belief we don't hate people on state aid and certainly don't atack everyone that believes in a higher power or go after every young adult that posted something on Youtube.
I often think she knows how awful she is and wants people to say "oh, makes sense, she's an evil republican." And trust me, we conservative rednecks want absolutely no government agencies involved in horsekeeping!
Paddy said... an MRI for shaken baby syndrome will show that the brain is contused/bleeding at front and back. The brain has bounced back and forth several times. When a person falls off a horse, the skull is hit on one side and the brain can be jolted so hard it can bounce off the other side, creating a subdural hemorrhage, opposite the area that's been hit.
I thought that horse's body language read mellow and trustworthy. And he looked like his sheath needed cleaning- that's likely why he couldn't retract it, or maybe he just had to pee like some of you mentioned. Fugly ought to have figured that out, don't you think, focused on dangly bits as she is?
Ah "lost in translation" never had a hankering for cowboy leg. lol.
As to Fubs, well her colt whom should be a gelding "behaves great" so he deserves to have his nuts? Well I've seen the trend to collect, freeze and geld start, and It's NOT because they are crap or are crazy. IF they are crazy people sell them. If they are crap they don't bother to pay for AI training.
And I don't mind people keeping stallions, I have trouble with people with a crap stallion telling EVERYONE else to geld their stallions. I notice she's not willing to train her baby to AI. Not worth it, now is he?
HSUS is actually the anti-shelter anti-rescue organisation.
For many years, they advocated in courts across the US that dogs seized in dogfighting raids be euthanised without any individual assessment at all. No matter how young or old the dog, no matter what the dog's actual history was, they advocated they should all be euthanised.
Then a judge with some cojones stood up to them. When the Michael Vick dogs were seized, HSUS went to court to have them euthanised. Business as usual. But because there was money involved and because there was notoriety involved, some dog trainers stood up for the Vick dogs and asked the judge for a chance to individually assess and rehabilitate them.
The results? Out of the 50 dogs seized, 2 ended up euthanised. And not for dog aggression! They were euthanised because they had exceptionally fearful temperaments and just could not get over the way they had been treated while owned by Michael Vick.
And now HSUS uses the Vick dogs in their literature as if HSUS had one single thing to do with those dogs being rehabilitated and rehomed with loving families.
HSUS is a political organisation that is about the self-glorification and financial well being of their top employees. Period. If there was money and power to be had in advocating for Beanie Babies, they'd change their mission statement in a heartbeat.
Looks like Fubbys gang of beotches is at it again She posted about this in her comments yesterday and this was on FB this morning.
RE: TB Breeder needs homes for mares and Foals - UPDATE Share Today at 7:07am ALL RIGHT FOLKS - The man Donald Jones, who asked for help with his TB mares/foals, is fed up with rescue & says he'll never call a rescue again and he'll never recommend ANY rescue again. So these horses are out of our hands -- God knows where they will wind up.
WHY? BECAUSE PEOPLE, DESPITE OUR REQUESTS, CALLED THIS MAN TO HARRASS HIM AND GIVE HIM GRIEF. They also called authorities to file complaints, claiming that horses weren't cared for. Colleen S saw the horses & facilities-everything was clean & well cared for, horses were clean and well -fed, buckets were scrubbed, etc. etc. . They even called the Tb racing authority and filed unjustified complaints with them.
THIS IS HORRIBLE, THIS IS A SMACK IN THE FACE for all rescues. He's now got a story to tell, a sadly TRUE story that rescues are BAD, that they won't help people/animals in need, that they cause problems. How can you expect people to rely on us or trust us to assist horses in need????
Never mind the fact that we cannot now help these horses. Where-ever they wind up ~~~ auctions, feed lots, slaughter, it will be directly due to the irresponsible actions and the "High and Mighty Attitudes" of some individuals. THAT is NOT rescue! THAT is just causing trouble and grief, plain and simple.
WHOEVER YOU PEOPLE ARE THAT MADE THOSE CALLS -- SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!!
The TB story is a disgrace. Reminds me of a Rottie yahoo group I was on but exited out of because of psychos like Fugly. People would come on looking to rehome their dog instead of take it to the shelter and they would get bombarded with "it's not the dog's fault you're having a baby, lost your job, etc." They'd also go after CL people, sounds familiar! but these same jerks would look for a "forever" home for their purebred dog at four years old once they had their championship if the dog couldn't be bred because of faults (yes dogs will still obtain a championship under the right handler even if the owner knows the dog is not what they want to breed). I know, doesn't make sense, but it happened, and I was sick of the hypocrisy. I completely understood why the people would quietly dump their dog in a shelter after being attacked by those loonies. As for the AI, people also use AI when they don't want to run the risk of their valuable stallion being injured in a live cover, or people want across the country want to breed. Personally, I wouldn't want to live cover for either a stud or the mare. Too much damage can be done, even in professional hands.
I hadn't heard about the Poor Man and his TB's but the story is amazingly familiar.And the sad thing is that if these TB's end up on 'Our' lot we won't be allowed to try to help them. Thanks to the efforts of Cathy Atkinson and her Crew, if the Tattoos can't be mutilated beyond recognition by the owners, the horses will die.The average person doesn't know the difference between Fugly's Favored Rescues and the ones she wants to destroy. The average person just wants to buy a horse..Flagging ads, posting filthy ads , spreading misinformation and libels,harrassing phone calls,horrid emails..Good Goin' Fugly, you've done a great job. You set this system in motion so you can't blame anyone but yourself while the 'Body Count' keeps rising, and respect for you keeps dwindling. IMO
Don't get me started on the Pinto 'thing' I'm still upset that I can't enter My Timmy ( world famous pot-bellied mule)in competition...true I've never been firmly convinced that all four of his legs are the same length and he tends to 'balk' at commands.But it still seems mean that he's disqualified when everyone else gets to compete..heheheh
Had a funny thing happen this morning...Turns out I do know the Lady who was trying to help the owner place the Mares and foals. I just didn't correlate the two things :) But the conversation with her led to a conversation with another Rescuer who didn't know that Fugly is Cathy Atkinson. I wonder how many people still don't 'connect' Cathy Atkinson with Fugly.
LoL@fugly's rant. That cracks me up. Seriously up. So now that's it finally turned around and bit her on the butt, she knows exactly how it feels, and instead of shouting about it on fb, she needs to post it where the majority of her readers, I assume, are. Her blog.
Helen, we need to be using Cathy Atkinson's name on this blog and every where and not our pet names. That way if someone wants to look her up like a potential employer or a rescue group this will come up in a google search.
That wasnt Fugly's rant it was the rescue that was working on placing the horses. The Man was livid and rescue has a shitty name again due to Cathy Atkinson and her idiot followers :(
Does anyone know who "Cl horse ad queen" is? Her blog is so lame it reads like: OMG!! SOMEONE MISSPELLED SOMETHING IN A CL AD, BURN THEM!!!!!
I love all of the "fugly wannabes" out there. I wish they could all be outed so I know who NOT to do business with in the horse world.
I have been shopping for a new horse and looked into getting a rescue. Sent in an application on one for a free horse with free transport and they said "Oh you are approved but now we need $500 and you have to figure out transport"....This along with all of these blogs and seeing these "rescue" people at work have turned me off to the idea of a rescue horse completely.
Just read FHotD about the mini "My horse .... spent a lot of time sleeping during classes when it was actually quieter than it was at night." I don't know much about WP but wouldn't a sleeping horse have a low score?
Last year on FHotD people went 'round and 'round about show horses with "pissy" attitudes and show horse owners who wouldn't let their horses be petted.
I'm still of the opinion that show horses need their down time and visitors (folks who have no ties to the horses in the barn) should be banned from show barns. Who knows how those folks get their jollies? A bit of a banned drug in the pepperment? How about some poison? If you wouldn't let strangers feed your kid candy or randomly come up and hug and kiss them, why would you do allow it for a horse, dog, cat, llama, etc?
I've never shown, but I've been to many shows and expos over the years and NEVER would just walk up and start petting someone's animal of any kind. It's a respect thing. I like to walk around the barn and see all of the horses, but I don't go make kissy faces at them and then blog about how terrible their lives must be if they turn their back on me. Some horses do not like that kind of attention anyway. My mare loves to be "loved on" but my husband's gelding could care less. He gets nervous if I start the baby talk...LOL!
Anon 10:55 p.m.: I agree. Not every horse wants to have someone hang on them.
My gelding is a good example of this. He's a love-bug with me (gives me little hugs with his neck and head, lets me cuddle up and kiss him, moves so I can reach the best scritches, loves to play tug with the hoof pick, etc.) as well as with a few select people (stable managers and my trainer and sometimes my husband); but he's generally just tolerant and slightly aloof with everyone else.
I think this comes from being a former lesson horse, but no matter. That's who he is. I really hate it when people mistake his tolerant attitude for a license to squeeze, poke, prod, and mash on him. The long-suffering looks he throws my way say it all.
Off-topic, but important to add: Thanks to all of you for your well-wishes and sympathy on the loss of my chicken flock and recovery of my rooster. He's still living in my basement in a cage, but he's doing much, much better. Despite the odds, he's still alive 12 days later which surprises everyone. He's on painkillers and antibiotics, and he can't stand and has little interest in pecking at food yet. Still, he tolerates being hand-fed food, and he works hard during our physical therapy sessions to stretch and contract his muscles. Basically, the vet thinks he's still in a lot of pain, but as he improves, those issues should improve as well. I'll keep you posted.
Comment on Randy Byers still training... fhotd says: June 3, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Oh, I know he is. And he has a column in some free horse magazine, too! It’s painful. I can’t BELIEVE anyone still listens to him. You should have read my e-mails after I blogged about him. I have literally never in my life heard SO MANY horror stories about one trainer.
Is she that full of herself? Cathy Atkinson you are a stupid woman if you really think you can hurt a world class trainer w/ a sour grapes story.
I just read the back and forth between Fugly, her readers and a commenter called Wyckedcowgirl. It was so hilarious that she couldn't get the joke. This woman was doing what she does, grabbing one picture and making ridiculous remarks about too much weight on his neck from her hugging him, cows being roped, etc and she didn't get it! She is so good for a morning laugh.
re. wyckedcowgirl, there was a poster named wyckedcougar, too. Cathy Atkinson verbally slapped her around, as well, insisting that she was a middle aged woman who was after younger men in bars. She also told her that she probably had blonde hair that showed black at the roots. The Fugly aka Cathy woman is hyper-senstive when someone calls her out on her own silly training methods and lack of horse husbandry knowledge. She reminds me of a fear-biter dog. Back her into a corner and point out her faults, and she goes into a rage.
Isn't it interesting that Cathy Atkinson goes off on a commenter and tells them they're not getting the point and will be banned when they raise a question too large for her tiny mind to wrap around?!
It still freaks me out that she seriously believes a good horse is a dead horse.
And yes, in any show but a pinto show a sleeping horse would be DQ'd. I wonder how much of the wonderful herb stuff they fed him?
I went and looked at Randy Byer's site, and I don't think he has much patience with the 'it's not a horse it's a mystical unicorn that farts rainbows' people...no wonder her readers complain about him.
hls, your rooster must be a feisty little guy. He has the will to live, that's for sure. I hope he is able to father many more little hengirls and roosterboys to carry on those strong genes of his. Survival of the fittest.
I think you need to re read the comments on Randy Byer. I believe that most folk are comparing RB to FHotD. That they are doing the same thing. RB and CA have both lost their credibility.
I had previously posted a comment about the tow teenage boys who stole and beat to death a baby alpaca. I have just read that both boys will be tried as adults. YEAH for the judge! I saw some courtroom footage and a psychologist said that the boy could be rehabbed within the juvenile system. The judge disagreed because he already had convictions on phone harassement and alcohol related charges. She considers him a threat to society. GO JUDGE!!!!
Anon 7:29am...Now wait a minute there...I have a very pretty 8 y/o buckskin that still has 'baby moments'.
Oh wait...No, he is just dumb as a box of hair!
LMAO!!!!!
But pretty as he is, he was still gelded as soon as his cahones dropped. Since Cathy Atkinson's reason for leaving the VLC a stallion is because he is an over 16HH buckskin stallion...well, it just doesn't give her rants about other people leaving their colored horses intact much credibility.
Sorry YHI, I really don't have a problem with the horse you bred for, just his current owner's hypocricy(sp?). The VLC is not a horse that would be particularly useful in my life...i.e-as a ranch horse, reining horse or barrel horse. So while I can respect people's desire to breed for a horse that is specific to their area of interest. I have no respect for someone who rants and raves like a lunatic about other people's choices to breed for what suits them.
He is perfect for Cathy she can buy him fake hair and dress him up, have someone else take care of him, Train, ride and show him Yep fubb life as a horse owner is tough...FOR YOU!!
Finally looked at the FB link of the pic of "Big yellow Cadi owned by Cathy Atkinson"
Let's start from the bottom up. Ok looking feet but could be a tad bigger for a tall horse. SUPER short and super upright pasterns. This sometimes leads to an unfortable ride and increased liklihood of lameness. Next he is Tied in at the knee which is a VERY heritable trait. You don't want it in your foals, then mama and daddy better not have it either. Plain boxy head....very UNCLEAN thick throatlatch even for a stallion, neck ties in low which is probably why he has so much under neck muscling, Always having to use his neck as leverage in transitions but never able to get off the forehand. Shoulder angle is not TOO bad you want point of withers to point of shoulder to point of elbow to be 90 degrees or more for a free foreleg. His looks to be just shy of 90* Not a very deep barrel so he has less room for Lung capacity decreasing athletic performance Front Gaskins are shorter than Back gaskins so he will ALWAYS tend to go on the forehand, even if he was ridden dressage by a pro every day of his life would be fighting that tendency. Hind leg conformation says hock injections by age 10 at least. Weak muscling around stifles=RED FLAG hunters bump=sacro-iliac problems SHort steep croup=A steep croup is one whose angle is inclined more vertically than horizontally, and is often called "goose-rumped." This conformation type reduces the range of motion of the hindquarters and also tends to have shorter distance along the croup, which provides less room for sufficient muscle attachment. In severe cases, the angle itself reduces the speed and efficiency for the horse's travel,
Last but not lease for a bitch who tears apart everything. Her hair cut and color aare hideous saddle is too far back sitting on his kidneys and way too big for the rider.
There I have sunk to her level. See Cathy Atkinson it's not so hard to tear apart a picture after all! I should start a blog.
Anon, you have not sunk to her level! You did not post the link, picture and contact information so followers can harass, er, I mean "contact" her. It takes A LOT of energy to get down to her level. :-)
This is interesting. Someone posted that video cathy posted about the mistreatment of the cattle on the craigslist forums and spoke up about fhotd. I normally just lurk there, but I finally spoke out with "That woman is mean spirited and a bully." Now, I think she had enough people to have me banned because my log in name now suspiciously doesn't exist.
Question... Since Cathy Atkinson has to approve comments on her blog seems she should be held accountable for the content? If so this puts a whole new spin on things....
CCC, Thanks for the update. I find it hard to follow cases involving animal abuse. Great that the judge can distinguish a threat to society because that is exactly what that idiot is.
Since Cathy Atkinson has to approve comments on her blog seems she should be held accountable for the content? If so this puts a whole new spin on things....
There's quite a bit of case law related to that. The actual statute is 47 USC 230 (c). I'm not a lawyer, nor am I someone who takes that much interest in 230 defenses, but I think that this does protect any blog owner from liability for content even when the owner actively approves or denies comments. As long as she argues it was done in good faith it's covered.
The wikipedia article on the CDA is pretty good and seems to be updated. There's also a slideshow from a talk given by one of my favorite 'net lawyer bloggers. PDFslides about 47 230 (c)(2).
I don't think there's a cause. And, even if there is, we're back to needing to demonstrate actual harm (specifically monetary) caused by what she's doing. There isn't much of that here.
Yup Fiona, that's exactly the same thing I've been hearing for the past couple of weeks. As nutty as it sounds, Our Very Innocence precludes us from bringing a charge. If we had been guilty and ever charged anyone, even a penny, for our services we could claim damages. But since we haven't, we are left with no recourse but a civil suit against someone who (if reports are true) is barely one 'begged' bed above a Street Bum. I can't fathom how someone can 'get to be' the age of Cathy Atkinson (Fugly) witout earning something of her own (except a rotten reputation)..but it seems she has. So the entire weight of the costs of a suit would have to be borne by me and it would start with $750 in 'discovery fees', whatever that is, then it would escalate from there.The only good news I have to share is that there did seem to be some interest in the 'Reporting' practices of the Blog Host. The Agent said he would 'Check it out' and 'Get Back to Me'. But it was Lunch Time and maybe he was just trying to get me off the phone :)
Helen, one thing you can consider is documenting everything in a rational and factual fashion. Then put up a page, use good keywords and refer people to it. Won't always have an affect, but the person who tells the rational side of the story tends to get more sympathy.
If you are the one to first document it (even to pointing out what she may have done right) then you can control the tone of the story better. Act rational and sane and most rational and sane people will pay attention to you. You can't get the crazies so you just have to put your facts out there and let the other side defend themselves.
Thanks Fiona, I really wasn't asking for sympathy :), I had just made such a big deal out of starting my investigation, I figured I owed you-all a 'follow-up', even if it was admitting I had failed miserably. This process has been an 'Eye Opener' for me and in the end, the Rebels will continue it's work because it's honest and it's simple and it offers the best of the best horses on the feedlot - and people will always want a bargain- But despite all my best instincts, I find myself concerned about Cathy Atkinson (Fugly)..didn't take long to understand that she's 'split' herself between Fugly and Cathy..Fugly seems to have screwed up everything she's touched and gathered a 'power-base' of real nuts creating chaos, while Cathy is fighting for 'Respectability' amongst the very group that Fugly has insulted and, if she figures these people don't talk amongst themselves, she's wrong again..They do talk and they do care about their reputations and they do resent the confusions she has created..This is just My Opinion, but when enough people connect Fugly with Cathy Atkinson, that girl is going to implode.
I would like to Thank Adelina Stugelmayer from RACE Equine, Katie Merwick from Second Chance Ranch and Cathy Atkinson for the death of the 20 or so TB's shipped to slaughter today from the Yakima Feedlot. I hope you 3 rot in hell.
Paddy said... JSF, twenty horses... :( they're probably at Florence Packing in Stanwood now, awaiting the ride across the border. I've driven on I-5, northbound, when a cattle truck loaded with horses from the Yakima feedlot slowed down in the lane next to me. My friends here know how haunting it was to see those faces... Do the people with the Seattle-area auctionhorses proboards have anything to do with Rebel's? Can a horse be purchased at Florence Packing, last-minute? I saw a CL ad today for around 5 or 6 TBsk. I went to auctionhorses and looked at them. I have my eye on the gray gelding- wishful thinking!
Since Adelina Stugelmayer from RACE Equine, bought a TB from the feedlot, Katie Merwick from Second Chance Ranch ran the tattoo and Cathy Atkinson posted the owners name (who didnt know her horses went there) a truckload of TB's leave every week. There is nothing Rebels can do. Most people from the Auction Board are involved in some way and do not give a shit.
It is terrible. Doesnt that make over a 100 TB's in the past month and half? I try to keep track but sometimes it is too much to stomach. I just dont get how those "women" can live with their trouble causing big mouths... Knowing your actions have sent horses to slaughter is just disgusting.
Okay, I can't stand it any longer so I've gotta ask ~ is this about "keeping your mouth shut to not make the meat man mad" or is there something more to this situation?
Because I'm sorry, been there, gone through that BS with regard to a local rescue here about 10 years ago or so. Keeping quiet about people who dump and ship horses to feedlots and slaughter, keeping on the downlow to protect the bastards who send horses to their deaths is far, FAR worse than outing them...
I cannot abide playing nice with those who ship horses to slaughter as punishment for not shutting your mouth. Getting the word out saves a whole lot more horses in the long run than pretending you like what's going on.
The real goal of rescue should be to keep the damn killbuyers from getting any horses in the first place.
They outed the owner wrongfully. The trainer gave the horse away and the fuglyites harassed so many owners the feedlot owner got pissed and ships them with no chance of rehoming. Rebels IS NOT A RESCUE it is a listing service for the feedlot horses. Now the TB's are not listed. If Cathy Atkinson wants to out them fine but she only outs the Rebels lot. Why not Enumclaw? Because Ron the owner there told them the same thing!
I Remember reading they were trying to get the #'s on some a while ago and there was green stuff(ink) covering parts of the numbers. It is not to protect the feedlot owners or the people who dump the horses. It is save the horses. I dont like slaughter either I would rather have a horse alive then dead due to someone causing harassment without the full story. I suppose getting the limelight for your 5 mins of fame is too important to others.
No SFTS, this is not about 'keeping your mouth shut' to 'play nice'.We established the fact that the Owners and the Breeders are rarely the people who dump the horses. They sell the horses to dealers who then sell the horses to someone else. Or some,as in the case of Mz Wigels, give the horses away to someone who says they will train them, or in the case of the SeaWinds stables,the owners have thier horses 'Out' on a lease-contract with private individuals who then dump them - The point I am trying to make, here, is that buying and selling horses is a legal business. There's nothing we can do about the traders and the dealers selling horses to the Feedlot.If we are going to help these horses we have to work with the people who own them at the moment, not the people who owned them last month.I agree the 'Best Case' scenerio would be for Rescues to work with the Owners and the Breeders to re-home Horses straight from the track. And I know of at least two individuals who were doing that, here in WA State, before Cathy Atkinson and her crew created the chaos with Mz Wigels (and the people at the local track). Of course Fugly learned,eventually, that she had targeted the wrong person, but by that time the People in the Industry had 'closed' ranks and the FLO had closed off access to any of the OTTB's. If you are trying to attribute any 'Noble Intent' to Mz Atkinson's behavior , please allow me to remind you that her Buddies, in the various Rescues, get OTTB's all the time and none of those owners are ever 'Outed' She uses that Blog of hers as a weapon to harm the people she doesn't like. In my opinion, the only 'Cause' Cathy Atkinson cares about is her own. And neither she or her group care about how many horses die in the process...And just to be perfectly clear...The Rebels board is not a Rescue. We are a Listing Service, working with a FLO who refuses to deal with Rescues on any level. We are a last ditch effort to save as many as we can before they are shipped to slaughter. Like it or not, the FLO owns these horses. They are his private property. He determines their fate, Not Cathy Atkinson (Fugly), or Me, or You. No one is 'Obligated' to work with us or any Rescue. If Cathy Atkinson believes she has any power to change the behavior of anyone with her nonsense, she is wrong. She has done nothing but destroy any chance that any of us might have, to work with the Industry and give them a way to re-home these OTTB's.IMO.
The 'damn' kill buyers are doing a legal job. They are under absolutely no obligation to cooperate with rescues. The ones that allow rescues to cherry pick their lots are decent people, and need to be treated as such, instead of being harassed by self righteous nut jobs.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome 'this time.' The harassment has only resulted in ensuring that ALL the horses go on the truck. The nut jobs are accountable for at least a hundred deaths so far, but they seem to think they should not be accountable. Hypocrites.
As much as I hate slaughter, is it really kinder to let horses starve to death or to use up resources that could be put to better use? The funds used up by Champ and Hercules could have went to keeping a multitude of usable horses alive.
The process CAN be humane, but only if people face reality and work together to improve the system.
Looks like a bit of a meltdown over there and Ron is covering the Tattoos. Katie Merwick is trying to pull rank and tell them who gets the horse. Cathy is trying up her blog hits by telling them to send her magic TB rehoming sheet to all owners and we can all just read and watch the circus LOL Also in case they dont know they are not a Charity or 501.3c so why would anyone fill out an application I would never give my personal information to Tash in this lifetime
Tash is a veeeery skeeery person. I too would NEVER give her ANY KIND of personal information. She can be a very mean underhanded person who spends literally all day on the web..... Why arm her with your personal information? Nu Uh not me....
SFTS, I've gotta respectfully disagree. What the kill buyers do is not illegal. You wanna change the laws, then go after (try?) that. Until then, it makes no sense to harass kill buyers. They are the trash man, dealing with everybody's else mess. I would agree that pushing to make sure the breeders - especially breeders like the TB industry - do their UTMOST to provide safe homes for their horses is legitimate. But I also gotta say the one that started all this latest brou-ha-ha seemed sketchy as far as how "horrible" the breeder was. Again, it is a delicate dance. Attack it politically, and walk the tightrope to get as many as saved as possible in the meantime. Of course, I don't disagree with slaughter in essence. I just want HUMANE slaughter (no big factory types, no horrible packed trailer ridges) etc...
Helen you are absolutely correct that buying and selling horses is legal. The hows and whys of the transactions my be morally repugnant to some folks but the bottom line is this: It is perfectly legal to sell a horse to the highest bidder. End. Of. Story. It is a ridiculous waste of time, energy, and emotions to "OUT THE ASSHAT" who sells a horse to the kill buyer or anyone else. Some folks may find it morally reprehensible, but there is absolutely nothing illegal about it. Its like publicly outing people who have a dog chained in their back yard. I find that morally reprehensible, but there is nothing illegal about it. Or like publicly outing people who feed their children chicken nuggets every night for dinner... Or outing people who wear white after labor day. Or outing people who paint their homes red. I may or may not like any of those things, and may find some of them morally reprehensible but none are illegal. If you want to rescue horses by all means rescue away! But defaming people for doing something perfectly legal does far more harm than good. I think the fact that Rebels is not longer able to list the TB's so they go straight to kill and that Ron or whomever is altering tattoos on Tb's shows what kind of harm defaming someone over your own ruffled morals is.
I fully agree withthe last statement. I am proud of the hard work Rebels listing is doing and they do not deserve the crap from Cathy Atkinson and her butt of fanatics. I am saddened by the turn of events for the TB's regardless of where they came from. They have done nothing wrong and pay the price. Shelley D
As to the brokers on the feedlots, they are not the villians, they are a effect of too many horses. NOT the cause. There is a listing service in Penn that does great things listing these horses and ponies so prospective owners. I know of at least 3 Curly horses saved this way this spring. BUT the problem I have is that the "rescue" I contacted last summer REFUSED to put up $200 a head on curly yearlings that the owner wanted to take to sale. The lady repeatedly told me that she was taking them to sale, wanting me to do something, but I had such limited resources. I am NOT a rescue. I did take in 2, but there was about 12 total. Finally another owner paid for them, but it was touch and go for a couple weeks. Then the Rescue turns around and pays $600 a head off the feedlot this spring. Tell me why it is smarter to pay $600 instead of $200 to rescue horses. And I think there is a much more REAL risk on the feedlot of ending up canned. So no I don't blame brokers, least they admit it's for the money. There are less owners out there, make LESS horses. my 2 cents.
Did anyone see where Fubbs went AWOL upon somebody condemning people for being a part of the HSUS and PETA? Basically it was a list of whackos like herself who sit there and pursue god knows as bigger offices and deeper pockets. Basically the person was saying to stop supporting these people. Article was found here http://rtfitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/25/wyoming-representative-slaughterhouse-sue-wallis-goes-totally-postal/
The 'Cloud' herd reference is priceless. That herd is NOT 100% wild. They are totally habituated to being followed by people, talked to by people, hanging out with people, filmed by people...less 'wild' than a range herd. BFD.
The feed lot owners who allow people to high grade will steer buyers toward a horse that they think has potential, and they see the unvarnished truth about that horse rather than delusional, sentimental, 'what ought to be's.' Some horses can't be saved. Whether you poison them or eat them, they have no future. If it's fast and painless there is no difference to the horse.
SFTS- In case you didn't know about it, Cathy (Fugly) thinks you are a complete and utter nutcase. She claims her information comes from others of authority in your area. It's only one of the reasons she has never featured you on her blog. She fears the repercussions.
If you still post over there, you may wish to change that. BTW- Don't be mad at me, I'm just letting you know about all of this. It is only fair, right?
Don't you just love it when absolutes are decreed?
Slaughter, per se, IS fast, and relatively painless.
You must be thinking of torture. It's not supposed to be fast or painless.
SFTS, nice to see you posting here. I have to agree with the others, of course. PF and Helen both said it beautifully.
Auctions/slaughter-houses have been around longer than the young folk shrieking about death. They have not enough experience with it.
When my old red dog passed away in my arms, it was pretty fast, I pray it was painless. I hope all of us have a swift passing, too.
Given the choice of a slow death by starvation/neglect, or the slaughter line? Sorry, I'd send 'em to slaughter. My heart would break, but hey, it's been broken a lot, anyway.
Slaughter, per se, IS fast, and relatively painless.
As far as I can tell, after having viewed quite a few videos taken in the slaughter plants where the horse is trying to dodge the captive bolt and where stories of the horse still being alive when he/she is strung up by their hind legs to have their throats slit so they can bleed out doesn't sound like fast and painless to me. I wouldn't wish this scenario on my worst enemy.
You must be thinking of torture. It's not supposed to be fast or painless.
Yes, I feel that, in many cases, the horses are, in essence, tortured in the slaughter plants to a degree; a gruesome torture IMO.
Auctions/slaughter-houses have been around longer than the young folk shrieking about death. They have not enough experience with it.
Does this make the methods they use that much more acceptable? I'm glad to know that people speak out against the atrocities of slaughter for horses. What experience does one need in order to take a stand against slaughter? Does a person have to go to a slaughter house to watch as the horses are bludgeoned to near death with that captive bolt in order to have an appreciation for what the slaughter houses are doing to the horses? Would witnessing first hand help to turn someone who is against slaughter to become in favor of it?
When my old red dog passed away in my arms, it was pretty fast, I pray it was painless. I hope all of us have a swift passing, too.
I have watched as my own horses have been euthanized by the vet. I have never experienced the horse writhing and wretching in agony. All of mine have been tranquilized to the point of collapsing in deep sleep before the death juice is administered. They truly have died peacefully and painlessly. When the renderer comes to pick up the body, they are respectful of you and your horse and handle the body with great care in your presence. It's all a very tolerable experience and I would opt to have them euthed by a vet long before I would have them shot or send them to kill. That's just me, of course.
Given the choice of a slow death by starvation/neglect, or the slaughter line? Sorry, I'd send 'em to slaughter.
Nobody would condone starving a horse to death or neglecting the horse to the point of causing him/her to become so cripple they can't stand up but, IMO, slaughter is not the answer either. It's never a viable option to me.
My heart would break, but hey, it's been broken a lot, anyway.
All of our hearts have been broken at one time or another; it's a fact of life unfortunately.
I just wish people who own the horses would take responsibility for their basic care and ending their lives in as painless a way as possible. I would prefer shooting the horse over slaughtering the horse any day, if that was the only other option available.
Truth is, people don't take responsibility and are successful in shoving that responsibility off on someone else, whether it be a kill buyer who sends to slaughter or a rescue who takes the horse in and, at times, does the right thing by the horse and has them euthanized.
Until owners take responsibility, this problem will continue to exist, I'm certain. Yes, that is an absolute statement.
Slaughter is NEVER the answer, IMO.
As to hounding and harassing previous owners of OTTB's, it has been shown that the zealots get nowhere when they do this. It's a waste of time and the former owners/trainers don't deserve to be stalked in this manner by anyone. These zealots have, in fact, been responsible for the deaths of a lot more horses than they have helped because of thier zeal. They are stupid, stupid people and the horses die because of them. IMO of course.
Lucerne - I would agree that most slaughterhouses are a horrible stressful experience for horses which they do not deserve. As it is for cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys, etc., etc., etc... I'm not opposed to slaughter for the use of the meat, hide or whatever. I'm opposed to inhumane slaughter, whatever animals is in the pipeline at the moment. "Knacker factories" like those in Europe, where an owner can walk their own horse up and through the process, where they don't have a bajillion stressed out animals milling around. That sounds great. Local, small slaughter houses. Or, even better, the traveling butcher that comes and does it right in their own pasture. Heck, can I get one of those for me when the time comes???? I think we need to get over the "oh my god we can't slaughter Flicka!" ridiculousness which gets us nowhere but complete alienation with the other side and concentrate on how do we have HUMANE slaughterhouses for all animals. Not to mention HUMANE lives...
PF, I am in that "oh no, don't slaughter Flicka" category. Hahaha. To me, no horse should be brutally slaughtered. I don't think there will ever be a humane way of slaughtering a horse. If there were, wouldn't someone who owns a slaughter house have implemented a more humane way at their plant by now, especially since there has been such an ongoing outcry against slaughter for many years now. Can you think of a humane way? I can. I think a bullet to the head, if done correctly, is far more humane than what they face now. Would I choose this method for my horses? No. I'd rather pay the vet and the renderer but that's just my choice. I certainly don't think poorly of someone else who chooses another method.
I also realize that all the animals we put on our supper table are slaughtered by methods of which we may not approve or be comfortable with. Why their demise doesn't bother me can be rationalized by saying that we have always eaten chickens, pigs, cows, etc. so the methods used to slaughter them aren't even given a thought. We just love those tasty hamburgers, steaks and turkey/chicken dinners. I have no sympathy for them being slaughtered and that is a horrible admission to make. I do, however, take great exception to the way horses are slaughtered and would use all the anti slaughter arguments to explain why I feel this way. Is that being hypocritical of me? Yes, I guess it is but it's just the way it is.
Would I go overboard in my zest to end slaughter by doing stupid things to the pro slaughter group or say stupid things to them? No. I would just state my position and do what I can legally to end slaughter and leave it go at that. If the other side wins and slaughter houses re-open here in the US, I would accept that ruling (but not like it).
I can't control what other people do with their animals; I can only be accountable and responsible for the ones in my care. I hate biting the $400+ bullet when I have to euth one of mine but, again, that's just the way it is and the way I prefer/choose to end my horses' lives when the time comes.
There are no easy answers. Heck, people have been battling this slaughter issue for years; people with a lot more experience and knowledge than I have and they haven't come up with any solutions either.
I just do what I do and respect the rights of others to do as they do with regard to ending their horses' lives. I may not like the choice they make, but I respect their right to make it.
It's the same with abortion. I would never do this myself but I don't have the right to tell someone else what to do with their body. So, I'm pro choice. OMG, string me up from the nearest tree branch for feeling that way. Hahahaha.
What the zealots are doing to the former OTTB owners is just plain wrong and I hate to know/see that horses are suffering because of it.
I have to disagree with Golightly on the slaughter issue. I have just as much of my right to speak against it as anyone does for it. The abuse that goes on behind closed doors at those plants is abhorrent because those people can get away with it.
The abuse that goes on behind closed doors at those plants is abhorrent because those people can get away with it.
But that doesn't mean slaughter, in and of itself, is the problem. Personally, I have a lot of problems with the toxic chemicals and tainted flesh being buried. I think that is environmentally damaging and am not real thrilled with the chemicals dispersing into the environment.
A humane slaughterhouse is possible, with appropriately trained handlers and correct equipment.
I also have no problem with rendering the horses for meat. I know this really icks a lot of people out, and that's fine. But, no matter how we do it the animal is going to get recycled back into the food chain, whether it's through burial or some other process.
For those of you nit picking apart at Go Lightly's post, I think you clearly missed the entire point. I can forgive you of that.
What I read in her words is that slaughter or processing IS quick and painless since the horse is already DEAD!
Is it not, the DEATH part, where we all hope for quickness and a painless process for the sake of the horse (cow, pig, chicken, sheep, goat, turkey or ???) involved? This does not always happen and it is in no way assured or guaranteed for any animal.
Lucerne- If the other side wins and slaughter houses re-open here in the US, I would accept that ruling (but not like it).
I am not making you the primary target, but just using that as the essential point for all of this, for those who oppose the US slaughter plants being used for horses...
For those against the US plants being reopened or new ones built, what you're saying then is that shipping the horses over the border to die in a Canadian or Mexican slaughter plant is ok then? Knowing full well that once the horses cross the border, Americans have no say over how it is handled from there. You're all fine with that?
If the borders are 'closed' by legislation making it illegal to transport out of the US to slaughter, just where do you expect those 100,000+ horses per year to go? Who is going to pay to feed them? Who is going to see to their needs? The govenrment has proven with their management of the BLM horses- they are in no position to do it. They've already got their hands full!
Are the rescues expected to jump in and clean up that mess? Could any one of us reasonably expect that to happen? Look at the way they are handling things now. Look at all of the fighting and redistribution of horses going on between the rescues in their efforts to squeeze out every last penny they can in donations.
It should be a cold day in hell when that all comes together and happens for the good of the horses. I for one, won't be holding my breath until it does.
Hey Cathy heres one for your blog ....Yea I rode a stallion unsupervised at the age of 10. I also doubled on him. Best Stallion ever. We didnt wear helmets or fancy boots we went down to the river and swam the horses in (OH GOSH) groups of riders. We did a parade of stallion for the county and GUESS WHO WAS HIS HANDLER Me a at the time I was 14 yrs old...Shame on my parents for teaching me how to handle a horse and give/get respect from him. WOW what a concept. He was not your typical 23 hr a day in a stall stallion he had free roam of the upper field to survey his girls. He was a happy horse that died peacefully at the age of 26 on the same farm. So you can kiss my horses butt at slamming kids for riding some stallions. If you dont know them and have not personally been there Shut you mouth....If you want to talk to me about we can talk I am always open for a good conversation. Just let me know.
"If the borders are 'closed' by legislation making it illegal to transport out of the US to slaughter, just where do you expect those 100,000+ horses per year to go?"
Are you forgetting when California instated the ban slaughter in their state and closed their borders, that there was no real problem with surplus horses. That's just something pro-slaughter advocates use to make it seem right.
I just read FHotD open letter about the horse with multiple melanoma. FHotD is blasting M's mom for not being a mensch about giving M's horse a few months retirement or euthanasia. I get the feeling that Cathy would prefer the retirement then euthanasia.
I suspect that Cathy is angry at the wrong person. M's mom is allowing M to struggle with the realities of pet owning. It sounds like M is the one begging for someone to take the horse. I know if it were my kid I would say "We have X dollars. How do you want to spend it? Retirement or buying a new riding horse? Feel free to try and find a different solution. You have until the 32nd of Julust. Then I put the horse down.
Growing up and learning to make hard decisions is never easy. I for one wish Cathy would learn to do it.
Um, anon 3:29, are you sure they didn't go to Mexico or neighboring states, or just get dumped? Where DID they go? Did anyone check? Did anyone check with vets to see if the excess horses were euth'ed? What happened to the thousands of poisoned carcasses? As long as the 'nasty slaughter plants' are closed, no one seems to care where they went. Temple Grandin has done more for livestock by designing sane and humane kill plants than all the bleeding hearts combined.
Americans have a long history of messing up other people's back yards so we won't have to look. For instance, the oil spill is bad. Look at the spills that happen in the mid east that never get publicity. We are the ultimate NIMBY's.
A question about the closed borders of California, did they close the borders to Mexico or to the other states? If it was to the other states how did they pull it off? Freedom of interstate commerce and all that.
I just finished reading FHotD comments. Alliecat04 and Cathy have an interesting exchange starting at 1:52 pm. Alliecat points out that mom may have said "one horse, your choice" Cathy replies that the kid should ride other peoples horses for free. Alliecat replies what free horses? Cathy replies lots of free horses oh and have her get a job.
Umm, Cathy seems to be overlooking some problems, like the economy is lousy. At least where I live, we have grad students flipping burgers and mowing lawns. Former mid level managers are delivering news papers. Teachers are summer camp counselors. Parents are staying in rather than hire a baby sitter. High school grads with some college and/or an associate degree are bagging groceries and stocking shelves. I don't see any jobs for 15 year olds around here other than selling drugs or turning tricks.
The upshot of this exchange is the two ways to see a horse, a great big pet (then it would be unconscionable to expect someone else to take over the horse) or as livestock (an animal who works for a living). If the kid got the horse to ride, then it is livestock. She has to figure out were she is on the pet/livestock continuum.
As for finding free horses to ride, I don't know of any. If a kid came up to me and asked "can I ride your horse for free"? I'd say "no". Where I got lessons as a kid, lesson horses were just that, lesson horses. They worked hard 5/6 days a week and weren't available for show work. I don't know about you, but I would have my doubts about a 15 year old retraining an OTTB. Isn't Cathy usually fussing about getting highly qualified trainers for horses? At 15, you aren't highly qualified. Talented and experience you may be, but highly qualified you ain't.
I for one am still having a hard time wrapping my head around "retirement" for a horse. Whey do they DESERVE a retirement? I truly cannot figure it out. They laze about the pasture or barn having their every want catered to, and have to perform for their owners, on average 4-5 hours per week. It seems to be that they already have a very cushy life when they are "working" what is it they do to DESERVE retirement? It seems to me, compared to people, they live a semi retired life already. There are PEOPLE who have worked 50 hours per week for 30-40 years that have to provide for their own retirement, and most only get to "retire" for 8-10 years on average. Why is a horse more deserving?
Anon <3, You said, "What I read in her words is that slaughter or processing IS quick and painless since the horse is already DEAD!".
---------I understand that you are interpreting GoLightly's post but the horse is not dead when they reach the slaughter plant. If the horse were already dead from other means, there would be no outcry to put a stop to slaughter. Processing of the horse's meat is not what people are up in arms about, not to my knowledge anyway.
You went on to say: "Is it not, the DEATH part, where we all hope for quickness and a painless process for the sake of the horse (cow, pig, chicken, sheep, goat, turkey or ???) involved?
--------yes, this is what the anti slaughter people want; a quick and painless death for the horse.
You went on to say, "This does not always happen and it is in no way assured or guaranteed for any animal."
---------I agree. It doesn't always happen and can't be guaranteed for any animal.
To Anon 2:14: You said, "For those against the US plants being reopened or new ones built, what you're saying then is that shipping the horses over the border to die in a Canadian or Mexican slaughter plant is ok then?"
---------of course anti slaughter people do not condone horses being shipped over the boarders to die in Canadian or Mexican slaughter plants either. It's not ok. Never was. Never will be. We anti slaughter people oppose ALL slaughter plants, no matter where they are. So, it's not a double standard for us. All I was saying was that if it has been declared that US slaughter plants re-open, I will have to abide by the laws set forth by others; doesn't mean I have to like the law.
You then said, "just where do you expect those 100,000+ horses per year to go?"
---------I would want to see those horses that are deemed to be unfit, quality of life gone, extremely aged, infirm, crippled, whatever...euthanized by way of a bullet to the head if injection is not an option with their corpses taken to a rendering plant to be cut up and thrown into vats where they are cooked at extremely high temps until the mass has been reduced to liquid, then do whatever it is they do with that stuff to make other products. A bullet is not expensive. Rendering plants should not charge for picking up the carcass as they are profiting from the processing of the body anyway and don't have to pay for it. The younger, more viably sound and healthy horses could find homes with rescues or individuals who have the means to support the horse. If those are lacking, then shoot the young ones too. What else can be done? I'm sincerely asking since this argument has been around as long as the outcry against horse slaughter has existed and nobody has come up with a viable solution yet. Regardless, I still maintain that NO horse deserves to die the way they do in a slaughter plant.
You said, "Look at the way they are handling things now. Look at all of the fighting and redistribution of horses going on between the rescues in their efforts to squeeze out every last penny they can in donations."
-------I agree that it's shameful the way rescues carry on trying to beat out each other for the donations available; do everything they can to work against each other instead of in unison to help the horses but that, unfortunately, is human nature. Egos play a huge role, money is the grease that turns the wheel and they're all in competition with each other for those few donation dollars. As a result, they act more like vicious cats and put a huge blemish on the rescue world. The few that do it right are never heard from because the idiots who CLAIM to be rescues hog all the limelight. In spite of all this, though, there ARE rescue people out there who would quietly take on one or more of those 100,000 horses without fanfare or demand for the public's money. There ARE places for some of those horses to go. If the idiots would just shut up long enough and let the quiet ones step up to the plate, the horses could be spared the atrocities of slaughter.
Kestral, you said: " Temple Grandin has done more for livestock by designing sane and humane kill plants ".
---------I would love to find out what this design entails. Can you point me in the direction of this design?
I've never believed in horse retirement either. If they are too lame/dangerous to work as intended, put the horses down. Now the work might be as a pet/therapy horse.
Horses aren't standing around in their pasture talking about going to visit their grand kids, or taking up a hobby, or doing meaningful volunteer work. Neither do they reminisce about their days of glory. They live in the here and now.
Well, I am going to have to disagree with that whole idea that horses don't deserve a retirement when they aren't "useful anymore."
I have one retiree at this time, I have had this horse since 1988, he was my show hunter and probably the best friend I have ever had. He took care of my ass more times than I can even remember. Yea, he is gimpy left front so that he would only be rideable at the walk and he is a bit sway backed, but other than that, he is totally healthy.
According to several posters here, I guess I need to load up my .22 and go put him down right now.
No where in my book is that okay. It would be like putting down a working dog because they can't do their "job" anymore, or putting down an aging cat because he can't "mouse" anymore, just because they might have lost a step due to age.
This whole attitude that "if it isn't useful to me it doesn't deserve to live" is a very sad commentary.
The retirement issues is a tough one and depends a lot, I think, on your relationship with the horse in question. There's no way in heck that I would send my current horse on down the road to whatever fate awaits him when he gets too old to be my number one guy. He's just that good. And although we've only been partners since November, I adore him. We have a big love for one another. :-)
My previous horse was hot, rank, and annoying. After much back and forthing over the option of euthing her, I ended up rehoming her to a better home where she's remarkably happy, but honestly? I didn't care one way or another what happened to her. I thought I did, but I didn't. She was just that difficult.
I guess what I'm saying is that it all depends on what that horse has meant to you. If the horse has saved your life over jumps and been your best friend for years, then yes, it makes sense to me to put them in retirement. If not, well then all bets are off. No one way is correct, in my opinion.
Lucerne (and anon 12:51) - You are absolutely right, we are all entitled to our opinion! And you should feel free to state it and know your opinion will be respected! And I'm liking this site because it does allow us to discuss - and disagree - without becoming a nasty shitfest. Thank goodness for that! So, on that note, here's my thoughts.... It's not Flicka I worry about so much. The Flicka's of the world will have their "friends" who groom them, and give them treats and when the time comes, put them to sleep and bury them with a marker. But what about Flicka's half-brother Fred? The pig-eyed, rank SOB who now is chronically lame. Did he ever find a friend? Is there somebody to hold his head while the vet puts him to sleep? Likely not. And sure, we shouldn't be breeding for Fred. But guess what, he's still out there! And god knows we don't seem to have enough money/rescues to save all the Fred's. Shouldn't we plan for the BEST case slaughter scenario for Fred? Because if nobody gives a rip about Fred it's likely it will be hard to find anybody to pony up $400 to "put him to sleep." Yet Fred doesn't deserve to be stacked in a double-decker and ran through a warehouse factory slaughterhouse any more than Flicka does. I also tend to think our opinions our formed by our experiences. Take me for example. I grew up with horses and dairy cows. I was in dairy 4-H and would buy calves and raise them til the "freshened" (first calf) and then sell them to my neighboring dairy as milk cows. Lily, the sweetest, love everybody, let you sit on her cow...Jasmine, the pedigreed "princess" who knew it, she would raise her head HIGH in the showroom...Rosemary, the rather coarse calf who hated everybody but LOVED ME - after I sold her to the dairy she would pick up my scent when I walked home from school and I could hear her mooing for me (she had a very distinctive moo, sounded like an elephant!). Cashmere, the Jersey calf who would play dead because she hated to show lead and then would eat all her ribbons. I would go into the pasture and call them and they would all come running. Loved those cows. Sold them to the dairy when they were of age. They had productive lives being milked and having calves, and, when they were no longer productive, they were sent to the regional slaughterhouse and summarily stuffed into pens with strange cows, forced through shoots, and yep slaughtered, just like a horse. So we can have hamburger in our stores (most store hamburger is from our gentle, hard-working dairy cows...). At the time, that was just the way it is. In fact, it is STILL the way it is. Do I feel guilty about it now? Hell yes! Not because they were slaughtered. But because they were shipped off, packed in a trailer, to a strange place, scared, traumatized and THEN slaughtered. And if you don't think cows get scared, well, that's just because you don't know how to read them. Same thing as people with no knowledge of horses not realizing a horse is threatening to kick or is panicking. And pigs? Don't even get me started on pigs! THEY ARE SMARTER THAN DOGS! Sure as hell smarter than horses! Don't you think they know what's coming down the pipeline? Heck yes!
AND PART II (sorry...) Why, why, why is it okay to view our other animals as nothing more than a piece of meat but not okay when it comes to a horse? And keep in mind, while you (and most of us on this site) might have a large affection for horses. There are many people in this world that could care less about them. I take "interns" on my farm. Finally, this year, I have one (out of about 8 now), that is interested in my horses. All the rest - they LOVED the poultry. Turkeys, chickens, ducks...Gave them names, tamed them, spent time with them every day petting them, etc...They could and did, bond with the poultry. The horses were just big and scary. So keep in mind, many other folks really, really don't buy into the "horses are different" argument. But...most of those folks would agree that ALL animals deserve humane slaughter. And yes, I think horses can be slaughtered humanely. Just like cows, chickens, pigs, etc...How do you do it? Well, just like cows and pigs. Give them a bucket of feed, nice scratches, and while they are distracted, bullet to the head. Then you quickly slit their throat and string them up to bleed out. That's the same way the on-farm butcher guy does it for cows and pigs. I don't see why horses has to be any different. Even if you take to a slaughterhouse, if it is a small, local place. Where you can take your own animal and walk them up. That is a MUCH better scenario. Because you are there with the animal. And it is calm and quiet and not a huge factory forcing as many animals through as possible. And I totally, totally, totally...agree that slaughter houses are horrible places. That's why your need small, local ones. With lots of local oversight. I.e., you and me checking it out, taking our animals there, making sure it isn't being run by a bunch of evil idiots who enjoying inflicting pain. I would also highly recommend re-thinking that it's no big deal to eat those hamburgers, sausages, chicken wings., etc., etc...Go check out some of the incredibly horrible, nasty, disease ridden lives our farm factory animals live. Slaughter is a blessing for them. And then go find a local farmer raising animals like they should. On grass for goods sake! In open air, what a thought! And with calm, quiet, as stress free as possible slaughter days. Sure, the meat might cost you more. But guess what, American's eat way too much meat in our diets anyways. Budget for healthy, humanely raised meat and you are not only supporting raising animals the way they should be, but you will be healthier yourself... And I could go on and on, (obviously...) but time for dinner now!
Thanks so much Kaede and GoLightly for the links to Temple Grandin's website and the wikipedia pages. I skimmed over them but will go through them in detail tomorrow. I don't have a problem with slaughter houses restraining the animal's head in a contraption (pictured on the wikipedia pages) so that the captive bolt meets it's mark the first time around. One video I saw showed a horse dodging the bolt repeatedly and I can't remember if it finally found its mark or not. It was heart wrenching to see that poor horse trying to escape that bolt but I guess I'm a softie when it comes to horses, dogs and cats and can't stand to see them abused or even slightly mistreated. I consider the captive bolt (as I saw it used in that video) to be abusive and unnecessary because the horse was not restrained and tried desperately to get out of that box he was in.
I see no problem with "retiring" a horse or dog or cat at all. If the owner can afford to continue to care/feed/vet/trim/worm the horse even after the horse is no longer "useful" and the owner wants to provide a loving environment for her "useless" critter, so be it. When you love an animal, you naturally want to provide for his/her needs for as long as you can, as long as doing so does not put a strain on your relationships or budget. My horses stay with me for life. They have left the yard...dead (because they were euthanized) and that's the only way I hope the remaining ones I own leave my yard. Of course, I know that if I became ill or disabled, I would have to find homes for them but, barring that, I expect and intend to have them with me for the remainder of their natural lives, whether I can ride them or not. Again, that's just me though and everyone has to do what they feel is best for them and the animal in their care. I wouldn't even think for a minute of telling them what to do.
I'm looking forward to reading about Temple. I'm sure her insights will help me to understand Autism a lot better than I do now.
I also want to learn about bi-polar disease; what causes it, what makes those afflicted tick and how to handle being around a bi-polar person when they are having an episode. After all, education washes away ignorance.
PrairieFarmer: You hit on an essential element of sustainability in your discussion of the best way to produce and purchase meat. There are lots of reasons to support locally-raised, grass-fed, free-range meat that was slaughtered and packaged at a small local slaughterhouse. From the health benefits (the meat actually contains more beneficial vitamins and minerals) to the humane aspect of the animal care and disposal to the fact that this model keeps money in the pockets of community members instead of shareholders, it makes sense to pay a bit more for food that is locally produced.
I always note that locally-produced food truly is the one issue that transcends race, class, ethnicity and political affiliation. We all benefit from knowing where our food comes from. Wendell Berry put it best when he noted in his lovely essay "A Defense of the Family Farm" (1986) that "Land that is in human use must be lovingly used; it requires intimate knowledge, attention, and care." (We need look no further than the BP oil spill to see how utterly correct that observation truly is.)
Unfortunately, until our larger culture catches up to this notion (it's happening, but slowly) and until we can rebuild our local infrastructure that will serve communities large and small (goodbye Walmart, hello a patchwork of local producers and seasonal eating), we are stuck with such anachronisms as slaughter plants. The good news is that USDA has worked hard to make the inevitable outcome (death) in the slaughterhouse as stress-free and painless as possible. Temple Grandin has played a big role in that. It's definitely not a perfect system, but I would certainly rather buy meat from an animal slaughtered in the United States than in Mexico, say.
I looked it up in a Horse Vet book and Melanomas are described as being a tumor of pigment cells in the skin. It's common in older horses. The tumors are not caused by exposure to sunlight (as with humans) but are color related. They say it's called the "old grey horse disease". They are commonly found on the underside of the tail or around the anus but they can show up on any part of the body. They are firm and black or gray. They grow slowly and are unlikely to spread so they are left untreated. They can be removed by complete excision is difficult depending on their location. Cimetidine is a med used for stomach ulcers and has been useful in causing regression of the melanomas in some horses. It says nothing about the horse being in any pain. They have to be biopsied in order to determine if they are cancerous. I haven't read any further in the book because there's a lot to read pertaining to diagnosis of cancer and various treatments. However, pain doesn't seem to be a factor. I guess if they become as big as footballs or something, then it would be time to either have them removed or put the horse down.
So, Cathy is right on this one. Seems her horse is not showing any signs of discomfort or pain.
If an owner loves and wants to care for a horse, that horse HAS a job and a purpose. The only time I would get concerned is when the animal is in chronic pain, clearly unhappy or dangerous. When keeping the animal alive is more for the humans to say "I keep my horses alive".
If, as I read it, M can afford 1 horse. She wants to ride and show. The horse isn't in pain, but isn't useful for it's current owner. She doesn't want to give the horse a retirement. I think she should put the horse down. She is just having a teen age moment where is doesn't want to face economic realities. She can keep (and love) her current horse or put him down and get a new one to ride/show. She wants to have her cake and eat it too. This is part of growing up. Think of all the things teens collect ("It's valuable!") only to realized that in other peoples eyes it's trash.
Lucerne, I have seen horses with melanomas that crack open and bleed every day. That HAS to be painful... It has to be. I've seen them so bad on a purebred Andalusian mare that her tail was 6" away from her body because of the HUGE tumors on the underside and attached to her anus. Defecation looked painful. I saw a gray gelding that had them growing in his throat and he was slowly being choked to death. I do not agree that they are all non painful. Horses would not tell us anyway. They are incredibly stoic animals.
I do realize that my world is a rather rarified world where my horses are part of my family, just the same as my dogs and cats. While the idea that horses are just livestock or they are just a commodity to be used is totally against everything I believe, I do realize that it does exist in a major part of the world.
I know there are soooo many who will disagree with me, and that is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but horses ARE different from other livestock, at least in the USA. I could of course go on forever on the subject, but I won't.
I will also say that all animals, no matter what they are raised for, deserve to be treated humanely. Mass production as far as anything to do with animals is never a good thing. Quality control suffers terribly thereby creating suffering animals.
I most definitely prefer euthing a horse or any animal who can't do his "job" to shipping them off to auction or just dumping them because they aren't useful anymore.
My previous comment was made because there were a few "blanket" statements made about horse retirement. I truly despise that mindset.
Anon 1:49, I understand what you are saying and you are probably right; the melanomas you describe may very well be painful. I was just saying that the book doesn't address whether or not the horse is in pain, that's all.
As I said in my post, if the melanomas are huge and definitely if they are causing some sort of distress (as you describe in your examples), then excision or euthanasia is the answer, to me anyway. I would not keep a horse alive who had a melanoma in his throat. He would have been euthed. I would have had the melanomas in the horse's butt that could very well constrict the passage of feces excised or have the horse euthed. Those, clearly, are melanomas that, in my opinion, are a threat to the horse's well being and quality of life and I would not put the horse through living that way.
Since Cathy did not describe (or did she?) the area of the melanomas or the size of them, we can only assume they are small enough to not be a serious bother or threat to the horse.
As to the presence of pain, it would be hard to tell if the horse is in pain unless they are showing outward signs of pain, which can only be determined by observation of the horse; not some lackluster description (if one exists at all) of the melanomas written on a blog.
Somehow, in spite of how mean spirited Fugs is in her postings, I don't think she would knowingly allow one of her horses to suffer in pain and not do something about it. Of course, I could be wrong but I doubt it.
That's the common ground we share, Lucerne. I honestly don't think anyone here reading is a willfully cruel person, and I've never felt that way about Cathy and her treatment of horses/animals. That isn't quite the point, in my opinion.
Her treatment of people, see, that's another story.
I've tried to point this out, all over the place:) And I know, and have felt, and am currently experiencing, the pain of watching willful neglect of an animal. Me being nice won't change the situation, and neither will getting nasty. I report it, and report it, and report it. As dispassionately as possible, which justabout kills me. Cruel people are out there. I sure hope someday we can outnumber them...
Yummy and Dilicious!
ReplyDeleteToo funny!
ReplyDeleteSometimes they're pretty tough...
ReplyDeleteThat's what happens when you use a program to translate. The words they were looking for was calf and shish-kabob.
ReplyDeleteYeah, my brother speaks and reads fluent Mandarin. (He has passed the highest translation test given by the Chinese). And he has told me the translation equivalent to some of our city names. Pretty funny.
ReplyDeleteThe funniest one he ever told me was about a store in Chengdu. It had signs posted all over, in English, very big and neon - "Chengdu Tekramrepus! Biggest American style grocery store in China!"
He was with a professor of Russian languages at the time who thought "Tekramrepus" must have had some sort of Russian/slavic derivatives and was trying to figure it out.
Until my brother realized it was "Supermarket!" spelled backwards!
Hahaha-That's funny!
ReplyDeleteAlmost as funny as fugs bragging up the PtHA. So I guess the VLC will not be earning his ROM in an actual AQHA venue?
Classic!
Best Comment on there!
ReplyDeleteOn the “smart ass side” this is going to mean all dictionaries are going to have to be updated, and read that a “Pinto” is any horse except an Appaloosa or a mule, and “some may have, or used to have, large patches of a contrasting color.”
BYC Assoc come one... come all... register them Back Yard Colts!!
Oh Fubby you have slid so far into the shit you cant breathe! All that preaching was for not. You are the person you crowed about LMAO
too funny, bhm. Cowboy legs... mmm, grilled w/o the chaps, I hope.
ReplyDeleteI like my cowboys peeled, heheheh
ReplyDeleteSave a horse, eat a cowboy!
ReplyDeleteFubby made a comment
ReplyDeleteI didn’t want to flat out name this one because I haven’t heard anything bad about them, either. Nor have I heard anything good. They seem to have somewhat materialized out of the thin air and gotten VERY big VERY fast … which makes me VERY nervous.
Im making a comment
Then why even post you dipshit? Oh yeah because your BYC assoc wasnt embraced like you wanted it to be. I guess you needed a new post to divert your stupid followers? LOL But someone will figure this out and post the name of the rescue and the witchhunt will be on. Fubb will look like an idiot again when this place turns out to be legit. Or maybe she is jealous of this guy?
Fugs said....
ReplyDelete"You know, I admit I was one of those people who had been in some AQHA barns growing up and had gotten that attitude that Pinto, Buckskin, Palomino, etc. weren’t “real shows,” but I admit I’ve had to revise my attitude."
How convienent when BYC is hitting the show ring, huh? Guess Fubbly finally figured out that the AQHA judges would chew her up and spit her out.
can we say Krazy Kolor? The very thing that Fugly has been bashing for the last couple of years?
ReplyDeleteShe's come full circle, hasn't she?
Ah, the vision of old cowboys pole dancing. Lovely. *Snickers madly*
ReplyDelete~DK
Hate today's post on FHotD. All I can say.
ReplyDeleteMe too, Heather. My stomach turned.
ReplyDeleteInteresting about her little comment of "You are completely within your rights to tell someone that you think they’re an idiot – this is America. But tell them once, and don’t continue to harass them or make threats, or you may find yourself in a heap of trouble. If you aren’t sure where the line is, stay away from it altogether and keep your comments IN the comments."
I am there with you both, Heather and WIHaH.
ReplyDeleteI must say that most ranches in the west have barbed wire. I grew up with it. When we put in a new fence line we tied white rags to the top strands at intervals around the whole pasture. We then led the horses around so they'd get an idea of the placing. The white rags stayed up for a long time before they were taken down. Not once did our 12 horses get injured.
Fugly has no idea what it's like to live the life of a rancher.
The thing that gets me is that in the pic she put up of the fence, it looks like a white hot wire is across the top, and it isn't loose at all. Not exactly ideal, but not the most dangerous in the world.
ReplyDeleteSuch rage in fugly's typing...Wow...I cannot even imagine going through life that pissed off.
ReplyDeleteAs for the 'bob wire'....we've always had it and probably always will. I guess fugly and her bunch will just have to think I am an ignorant POS and don't deserve to own horses.
Awwww...that hurts my feelings real bad.
LMAO...NOT!
Agree with Anons 8:35 & 10:23!
ReplyDeleteFubb is a total and complete hypocrite. She skewered plenty of people for their barn blindness about their own horses, and went on about stuff like the Blue Eyed Horse registation. But now since she sees some benefit for herself, it must be good. Wow! A triple registered Krazy Kolor Horse! If she had any honesty about her at all, she would be posting about her own horse and her own behavior on her blog.
While it's fun that Pinto will offer more shows for everyone to attend, what's the point of a horse registry that almost every horse on the planet qualifies to be in? If I were an owner of a Pinto, I'd be annoyed with the PtHA. It seems like they could sponsor open shows without diminishing the qualifications for Pinto-hood.
I understand she used to be a little fatty. Anyone have any school pictures?
ReplyDeleteI am with you BEC, always had barb wire , likely always will.It must be maintained and kept tight.I also don't have it in pressure areas. As most farmer/ranchers will tell you small areas are better to be panels or rails as they are easier for stock to see , but I somehow doubt ole fugs is up to stringing hot tape over a mile to fence a quarter section , far less pay the power bill. Horse can and will hurt themselves on any and all kinds of fencing .Can we all say degloving injury? hppens more often with smooth wire. Funny the way that silly old bird hates appies and barb wire I am surprised I haven't been a star on her blog. Evil laugh...
ReplyDeleteWell, my dad, who does have an evil sense of humor, likes to say -
ReplyDelete"Horses don't like barb wire but... THEY DO learn to respect it."
Yes, I've always wondered about fencing and expense. 250 acres is expensive enough to fence, but some of larger places are going to be impossible to fence. As perviously mentioned, the electric bill alone is prohibitive let alone expecting it to be fenced with wood.
ReplyDeleteWe don't fat bash here, anon 5:05, not even fugs, if she was.
ReplyDeleteI remember getting into it with fugly one other time about ranches and keeping horses in barbed wire...She fully expected people on ranches to put up hot tape using solar chargers. I tried to explain to her that in pastures that are 200-300 acres, or more, the horses really aren't interested in messing with the fences. She was incapable of understanding.
ReplyDeleteThere are most assuradly rules that a person needs to heed when keeping horses in pastures with barbed wire -
#1-check your fences regularly and be prepared to repair any broken wires, posts or sagging wires immediately.
#2-If your smaller pastures are fenced in barbed wire, make sure that the horses you put together get along. Even if you have to alternate turn out time.
#3-Don't use barbed wire in pressure spots-i.e-around water tanks, coming into corrals or as cross fencing.
#4-As Anon said, hanging white or bright colored tape or rags for new horses or if you make any changes in the fencing position is also a good idea.
Essentially, it really boils down to common sense. Sure, it's easy for fugly to mandate what other people should do, but since she has never actually owned a horse property or even seemed to have actually been financially responsible for providing 'safe' fencing for her horses...it's just more of her telling people do as I say, not as I am capable of doing myself. LMAO!!
I'm still laughing at her sudden 'love' for the PtHA. I guess that blue ribbon the VLC won in his GREEN Horse WP class, really went to her head. Pinto to me has ALWAYS meant a horse with spots and for the association to open their books to just about anything except Mules or Draft horses essentially means they have just become another registry for anything and everything.
1st Amendment to the Constitution:
ReplyDeleteCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Explication of this Amendment:
(Absolute) Freedom of Speech and Press
The Constitution does protect the freedom of speech of every citizen, and even of non-citizens — BUT ONLY FROM RESTRICTION BY THE CONGRESS- (MY EMPHISIS) (and, by virtue of the 14th Amendment, by state legislatures, too). There are plenty of other places where you could speak but where speech can and is suppressed. For example, freedom of speech can be and often is restricted in a work place, for example: employers can restrict your right to speak in the work place about politics, about religion, about legal issues, even about Desperate Housewives. The same restrictions that apply to the government do not apply to private persons, employers, or establishments. For another example, the government could not prohibit the sale of any newspaper lest it breech the freedom of the press. No newsstand, however, must carry every paper against its owners' wishes.
I am always surprised that FHotD makes this mistake. THERE IS NO FREEDOM OF GENERAL FREEDOM OF SPEECH GUARANTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION. Only that the Congress won't make laws limiting speech. It is NOT the same thing. If people make hate or threatening speech that is not protected speech under the Constitution.
FHotD "I removed the last name only because some of the people who read this blog apparently do not have any self-control. Maybe if I make it harder to find people who are featured, then only the smart people – the ones capable of writing a coherent e-mail and expressing their legally protected opinion about the person’s behavior – will manage to track them down and the immature/stupid who think it is appropriate to threaten people (it’s not, and it’s not legal, and I won’t protect you if you do it) won’t have the necessary problem-solving skills to figure out how to make contact, and we can avoid some drama. You are completely within your rights to tell someone that you think they’re an idiot – this is America. But tell them once, and don’t continue to harass them or make threats, or you may find yourself in a heap of trouble."
Think she got her fingers smacked?
I just finished reading the comments. Back in the day the rule of thumb was one horse per 2.5 acres of high quality pasture, with one water trough per horse. Most folks had AT LEAST 10 acres fenced with "bob" wire. The only injury I ever saw was when a hunter went through a 5 board wooden fence. A rutting stag got into their field and frightened the horses. Both the stag and the horse preferred jumping the wood rather than the wire. The horse couldn't jump as well as the stag.
ReplyDeleteMoral: ANY fence can do damage to a horse.
Looks like fugs is picking on another kid again. Actually, either fugs put on a brand new pair of bitch panties, or she's hitting the mean stages of menopause. No wonder the only people who like her are sycophants.
ReplyDeleteSame anon as above. I just want to ask, in that pic she posted of Heide's face, was fugs the one who blocked out the guys face and put "<---- I'm with stupid" on it? Man, that is childish and vile.
ReplyDeleteShe does not handle pressure well.
ReplyDeleteKaede-It does sound like something happened. Since when does fugs NOT post any and all personal information she can get her hands on about her victims? And now two times in a row?
ReplyDeleteShe has said over and over that she will always name names and go the extra mile to 'out' people she feels have done wrong.
Apparently whatever happened made her get her panties in a bunch, cause she is in rare nasty form.
Of course something happened, and there is more to come.
ReplyDeleteYHI here, Ol Fubbly is CRAZED about Barbed Wire... ABSOLUTELY CRAZED.....
ReplyDeleteI had 4 strands of barbed wire along a 4 lane highway on one of my properties. It had hot wire on top. She was constantly squawking about the barbed wire. No horse was ever hurt on it, yet she was always going ON about it. I'm sorry but it was along a roadway, a very busy roadway, and hot tape just did not seem to be a safe alternative, especially given the issues I had on that property keeping the hot tape hot, and I did not have 10 grand to replace it with woven wire at the time. I had 5 intact male horses in the pen and she FREAKED out when one got a bite mark and she started screeching that the wire had cut him. It was a BITE that scraped his hair off...Hello colts play HARD and bite each others necks, nothing deeper on him than hair and a bit of hide scraped off. But she just KNEW the wire had taken a toll....
What an IDIOT.
The worst injuries I have even seen were on smooth wire and board fencing. I have had barbed wire on places I have lived and while I would never install it for horse corrals, it is use-able as a perimeter fence providing there are no other horses on the other side.
Fubbly's problem is she sees horses as giant kitties, and there are more folks in the world that see them as livestock.
Her views on horse keeping takes a farm animal, aka livestock, and turns it into the most labor intensive "pet" you can have. In her world, anyone who treats a horse like livestock is to be reviled, ridiculed, and the pitchforked mob should come after them and hang them from the nearest tree....
Anon 11:18
ReplyDeleteOooooo! Sounds like you got news! Gonna share, yes?
You can only paint yourself into a corner so many times...... eventually the snark fades and you see a very sad little girl, most likely molested, who couldn't have a pony as a kid, was made fun of in school. So she vowed to make it big one day and punish all those along the way who were pretty and had a horse. The song by Jewel with the lyric " Do you hate her because she's pieces of you" comes to mind.
ReplyDeleteBut with no formal education and no rich spouse it's pretty hard to promote a Stallion and make it big. I just read the other day that campaigning an FEI dressage horse for one years costs about $100,000 and these are not even stallions. I doubt HI is shelling out 100k a year to fubly. I am all about the American Dream but those come true for hard working humble people who dig in and hang on nad never give up. Fugly just steps on others to deflect negative attention on her, hoping that the dream just falls in her lap one day. I am not worried though Karma always has a way of righting the world, and it's usually at the most perfect time =).
I wonder if HI likes the fact one of their writers cusses like a truck driver?
ReplyDeleteI think she is on the verge of nutting up. There are quite a few in the process of giving her some grief and it is about time. Me thinks her tiara is slightly askew and is gonna be knocked off her swelled head.
I hate woven wire fences. We put it in and had nothing but problems, including one foal getting it's muzzle cut by a protruding wire, another horse getting a foot caught, and one horse that went through it. The stuff breaks into sharp daggers, and really cut the horse up.
ReplyDeleteRelatively inexperienced person here. WTF is wrong with the two videos Fugs embedded in her blog today? I see two videos that feature horses walking very carefully, an adult right there to grab a falling kid if necessary, and another adult leading the horse.
ReplyDeleteYeah, nasty things could still happen, but the danger level in those two videos strikes me as very low.
Sometimes I think Fubs doesn't understand risk assessment very well. Yes, there are risks around horses. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. She, by default, assumes that people taking risks she wouldn't take are stupid. She can't imagine that people might have different views of the risk. And that somehow horse owners might actually know their horses better than some freak on the internet.
ReplyDeleteI say this as someone who has gambled on a lot of decisions in her life and that has taken risks most people told me I was stupid for taking. Most of those turned out to be very good choices in the long run, and the few that didn't I took my lumps like an adult. It's a *little* different with kids involved, but just because Fubs says something is risky and wrong doesn't make it so.
Back to picking on babies again, is she? And no, the horse does not need to gain weight. The horse's weight is much healthier than an obese halter horse, who is a case of founder just waiting to happen. And it has to pee...
ReplyDeleteI notice she didn't post names and numbers like she usually does. Got spanked for that did we?!
Adult standing by to grab kid, old safe horse being led by an adult, how frightening! And what about letting kids ride those little trikes...why they could get hurt in so many ways. We must outlaw tricycles now!
Fubb is speaking out like a perfect parent. In the real world we learn that there's no such thing, and we listen to childless people's advice with our tongue in our cheek. Why is it that people feel entitled to the strongest opinions when they know nothing of the subject?!
Good Grief. I let me daughter ride on leadline with a spotter until she was able to ride and control the pony she was on. She wears a helmet and is in a nice soft arena. The horses she rides are old been there done that type of horses. She is more pampared and safer then I was as a kid. We got the mean Sheltand ponies that liked to run under branches and into fence posts. But that taught us at a early age to respect the darn things. Horses are dangerous no matter age or size. Having a good teacher and respect for the horse is major important to safety.
ReplyDeleteKestrel - thanks for the note on the horse's weight. To me, he looks just like the 20yo+ working QH that neighbors let me ride (bareback, hackamore, cross-country, helmet-what-helmet?) when I was in my teens. A bit on the old side and too smart to kick up a fuss with a baby on his back.
ReplyDeleteOh noes! A child riding a horse in a controlled environment! The horror! The horror!!
ReplyDelete~Dk The Horror!
I watched and do not see anything wrong. Poor Fubs. How come some rich man does not snap her up. Did see a Polo job for her in Denver.
ReplyDeleteHahahaha DK...to funny!
ReplyDeleteIt never ceases to amaze me that the 'perfect' parents never seem to have kids...
Why is that??
Oh yea...cause it's so much easier to tell people what you think they should or should not do when you don't actually have to live with the kids.
Hey! Not all of us that don't want kids think we're perfect parents! Some of us don't have kids because we're damn sure we'll be awful parents.
ReplyDeleteI do, occasionally, have reactions to parents and how they're handling a situation, but that doesn't mean I think I'd do any better. I've done more than enough animal training to know that kid raising has got to be an insane thing for anyone to take on.
Hey... didn't someone say she had a son somewhere?
ReplyDeleteoh give me a break!!!!! I have kids, grew up riding double with my parents at the age of two. Still alive! So are my kids, although they do wear helmets, but not when I'm ponying them around with a second adult walking alongside, seriously overreacting there. And why the heck does an 18 month old need boots if they don't have their feet in the stirrups. Go find yourself a job Fugly.
ReplyDeleteAnon 331 said:
ReplyDeletewhy the heck does an 18 month old need boots if they don't have their feet in the stirrups.
bwahahahahahahaahaha!!!!!
Watched both videos= amazing my kids lived. That was pretty tame compared to my household.
So...what I'm wondering is if you even want a kid that small (toddler) to have stirrups. Are they coordinated enough to not just get stuck in them at that age?
ReplyDeleteAnon 331 said:
ReplyDeletewhy the heck does an 18 month old need boots if they don't have their feet in the stirrups.
Dress up.
For Fugly it's all about appearances, not reality. It wasn't like that when I started reading her blog, it was about conformation and making good decisions about horsekeeping. Now it's about conforming to Fugly and her point of view.
Fugs posted a vid of a woman riding a 20 month old that was posted two years ago and her followers are already attacking her as if it was filmed and posted today. Yee-ikes.
ReplyDeleteWe love people like you Fiona! As parents we usually welcome input. It's the overly judgmental and inflexible people who drive us nuts.
ReplyDeleteAs for riding young stock, once again it's all in what you do with them. I don't think it hurts a youngster to be backed and walk around. You can ruin an older horse just as easily by doing too much too fast.
Anon 3:56
ReplyDeleteWhen I was in college I was grazing my project horse - a 3 year old that we were expected to break spring semester. Some woman (probably a fugly follower -- if there was such a thing as a blog back when I was in college!) came buy and gave me a lecture about how I shouldn't be breaking a 3 year old.
Look, I was a 20 year old college student at a land grant institution w/ attached veterinary college. Even if she was right (and given the amount of activity we did with the horses I'm not convinced) there was no way I was going to stand up to professors of veterinary medicine and tenured faculty to say "gee, I wanted to take this class but some anonymous woman walking by the front of the farm said what you're doing is wrong, so please don't flunk me but I'm not going to finish my project."
I mean, really, WTF do these people who come out of the blue to lecture people *think* is going to happen? Very RARELY will the target of the lecture turn around and fall all over the lecturer with a grateful smile. It's the whole honey vs. vinegar thing and vinegar almost never works.
I'm the anon 3:56 and I agree with you two posters, I was just shocked that her followers fell in on that girl on a video she posted two years ago. I don't even think she had comments until flubs posted it. And the girl was just walking the horse, she wasn't asking him to do any more than what he would do in the field and she wasn't a large girl either. I hope I didn't come across wrong when I said that earlier post.
ReplyDeleteI've just been reading today's postings and I'm speechless...almost...Did Fugly really scold her followers for creating DRAMA? I must have missed something :)
ReplyDeleteFHotD likes to bash folks who are getting an Equine degree. She likes to bash folks who buy a horse who are ignorant of what horses need. She likes to bash people who only learn from other back yard/non degreed instructors, she bashes people people who learn from winning trainers.
ReplyDeleteFHotD doesn't have a bell curve of techniques that work, she has a bell spike. Only the methods that she approves of (No top trainer or equine degree to sully her reputation) are appropriate, humane, and successful. That's why she keeps sending BYC to smaller, less competitive shows.
Fiona-I wasn't criticizing people for choosing not to have kids, just criticizing people like fugly who 'brag' about making the choice to not have kids and then takes great delight in bashing others for what they do with their kids.
ReplyDeleteYea, some parents do some pretty dumb things. Sometimes both the parents and the kids are lucky to survive, but I really didn't see anything in either of those videos to indicate 'bad parenting dujoure'-as fuggles likes to call it.
I am just getting back into the horse world after a 10 year break. I could not believe what I was reading when I first found the "fugly" blog. In theory, I get where she is coming from....but she is a hardcore PETA/HSUS whack job. The scary thing is that people take her seriously. I have read more comments about how she wishes the government would regulate people's personal lives and what they do with their animals. It is sickening the way she attacks people as well.
ReplyDeleteI just read one moron in her comments complaining that someone breeds chickens and goats!! Are you kidding me? Last I checked there wasn't an excess of chickens and goats filling up the shelters...and some people...you know, uh eat them? I've never seen a more moronic bunch of people. Glad this site exists...I was getting nervous that the whole horse industry was going the way of Fugly.
To Anon 9:28;
ReplyDeleteThe horse industry will Never go the way of fugly. And welcome back after a ten year break!
~DK
How cool is this, my captcha is equee
She is a Reagan Republican.
ReplyDeleteOne quick note, there is a very big reason Equine Liability Insurance places a minimum age limit on riding (usually 7 years old, sometimes 10 in my experience)
ReplyDeleteIt's mostly because even a minor fall from the height of a pony or small horse (or higher) can cause shaken baby syndrome in children under 7.
Not defending Fugly, or attacking anyone here who let tiny kids ride...just saying that there is actually a proven medical reason that some people go a bit nutty on the under 6 set riding period, let alone without a helmet.
Now, I know everyone has stories about what they did as babies etc, but do remember that shaken baby syndrome can have minor acute effects that compound over time and continued injury to the brain; one fall with minor damage makes the child more prone to further damage.
Good point, SB. I didn't think about shaken baby syndrome.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHiya GL! Good to hear from ya!
ReplyDeleteWell, speaking as a parent...of course you do your darndest to keep them safe. However, kids also need to be exposed and desensitized to stimuli. It's a balancing act all around. Coddled children often grow up with a distorted view of the world, either seeing everything as dangerous or not realizing anything is dangerous.
I agree with GL, I like to start kids at 7 to 9 years old, however my parents rode into the wilderness with four kids ranging from 2 to 7, riding the pack mules. We were led in on the string, and the stock was trail wise. We were born around stock though, and had a built in sense of caution and a firm grasp of how they thought. We did not believe that horses fart rainbows. We also knew each animal as a distinct individual.
I see less wrong with sitting a small child on a nice horse with an adult standing there to pull the kid off, than I do with putting the same kid on the school bus.
*Snicker* I actually knew a little girl, 2 1/2, who fell and broke her arm. Twice. After every test in the universe they discovered the mom had never ever once let the kid's padded butt hit the floor...so the kid had no idea of how to fall down without breaking something! Rather like stall raised colts, who don't know how to step over a twig.
I think this question has been answered best by the two phrases, 'Risk Assessment' 'Balancing Act'. It's a parents' job to teach our babies to live without us and protect them from hurt in the process. In the end, a pair of attentive parents is the best safety equipment any child can have. We all have treasured pictures of our Babies on Pony's, with Mom standing right there in a protective stance. This is just another example of Cathy Atkinson playing 'self proclaimed' Judge and Jury, and screwing it up, as usual...Just My Opinion :)
ReplyDeleteAnd it really did crack me up that none of the fubb followers seem to recognize a horse that's gotta gooooo! Leaping to conclusions is ridiculous based on a short film segment. I guess the worst of the abuse must be solved if that's the baddest thing she can find on the net...
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame that the organizations like HSUS give all rescues a bad name, and make people quit donating altogether. I did not know that HSUS did not run shelters. They are overpaid lobbyists. The dude running it is drawing down a cool quarter mill. Every state already has legislation on the books. It needs to be enforced, and there need to be shelter for the animals in need...or help for the stressed owners.
Cathy's 'outing' of other rescues, that may be receiving funds her rescues want, has done nothing good for the horses. It's simply made people afraid to donate to anyone, and afraid to volunteer because they might be attacked. Sad deal.
When I was under seven I use to tear around on my tricycle without a helmet. How is falling off a mini any different from falling off a tricycle?
ReplyDeleteOk confession time. When my son was 1 1/2 to 2 yo, I let him bounce around the house on one of those bouncy balls with a handle. He whacked his head on a desk, got a boo boo and cried...the next time, I made him go outside on the grass in the middle of lawn. Still no helmet though. He has managed to live to 10 yo so far with me as negligent mother. (Dare I say he is the best thing I have ever done in my life?)
ReplyDeleteI am ready for my punishment and to be ostracized...
As a parent of a 4 1/2 and a 6 1/2 year old, living on a farm, I routinely find that apparently I seem to allow my kids to do things that most of my fellow parents are horrified by. Stripping naked and rolling in mud holes until every orifice is caked? Check. Playing in the tall grass in the backfield, within calling distance of the house, without me being able to see them. Check. Lead-lining them on mellow pony/horse. Check.
ReplyDeleteBut I do find that many of my fellow parent's seem A LOT more protective of their kids than me. But then again, these same parents also remark at how independent and easy to do things with my kids are, when they are over at my house because they are too scared to let their 7 year old come to play without "being watched constantly because somebody might snatch her." And btw, this is from a mother who has known me since high school. And we live in a small town of 3000 people. My nearest neighbor is a 1/2 mile away. Last murder in our town? At least 5 years ago. I don't recall anybody ever being kidnapped...But, it's her call. And she won't let that little girl out of her sight!
I started my oldest at about 5 with me riding another horse and leading her on her pony. When she was old enough to be aware to not just "fall off" because she was mad or done or whatever. But both of them I started at geez, probably 3, sitting on the horse while being lead around, me along side. My 4 year old has now graduated to me leading but not standing next to the horse. And yes, both of them have fallen off. A couple times actually. But, to me, that's part of learning to ride! You gotta fall off...And then get back on.
I was riding my own pony on trail rides (my parent's had a dude ranch at the time) by the time I was 4. Actually doing more unsupervised riding - and WITHOUT A HELMET - than I let my own kids do. My dad said I was a better rider than almost all the teenage girls that came to stay.
Also, I am a strong believer to start kids without a saddle, or at least not stirrups. I think getting a little foot hung up in stirrups is potentially WAY more dangerous than falling off. But again, I make the crazy assumption that my kids ARE going to fall off at some point, despite my best intentions. So I try and manage the situation for the safest way to fall off as possible.
Angel Acres is a rescue??
ReplyDeletePreston is a gorgeous 16.1+ hand, 12 year old, Thoroughbred gelding currently schooling 1st level dressage.
He is solid, athletic, and ready to show. He has show experience and is sound, with no issues, no vices, no bad habits!
Ready to be shown, walks, trots, canters, jumps...goes into frame before you even know you want him to frame up!
And he is just one flashy, elegant guy. Please call for details, as he won't last long!
Adoption fee is $5500 - Click here to learn more about our program.
On the shaken Baby syndrome, my understanding is that the major risk is the height...so a mini is probably not posing a major risk (although having seen some of those mini-trots...LOL)
ReplyDeleteAlso, on the helmets...I really believe that "we never wore helmets" is not a very good response to all the recent research (last 5-10 years) illustrating the cumulative effects of even small concussions, and how much of that can be reduced with an approved helmet. I mean sure, people over 50 survived pre-helmet...except the people who died. Or still suffer the effects of premature dementia or brain damage.
In that way, I understand Fugly's perspective on kids without helmets. It's just such an easy safeguard to take.
You won't catch me telling anyone to put a helmet on their kid though, not unless they ask my advice (or post on a public forum.) They are your kids.
I grew up like PrairieFarmer described, getting dirty, being "supervised" by the neighborhood kids as we spent hours digging through ponds and sloughs and generally getting filthy and scraped up. My dad's attitude as a microbiologist/genetics major was that the more antigens you built up, the better. But when bike helmets became available, we all had 'em.
People are right, about balancing risk. In industry, we talk about reasonable precautions and due diligence. The law dictates much of that, with respect to worker safety, but there are always new situations and gray area to contend with. You do your due diligence to determine what reasonable precautions bring your risk down to manageable levels.
I agree that there's really no reason these days not to put a helmet on a kid's head for a lot of activities - like riding horses. Just like now that cars have seatbelts there's no reason not to use them. Just because my great-grandma survived a car wreck without one doesn't mean it's smart for me to forego using them. That said, the videos Fugly posted don't deserve anything like the vitriol she's dumped on them.
ReplyDeleteSomebody thought the horse in the first was a stallion expecting to cover a mare? WTF? Even my first thought (I'm a relative newbie) is "the poor guy looks like he needs to pee". He sure as heck doesn't look like he's expecting an interlude with a willing mare.
I commented on the first video's YouTube page, and have been being lectured ever since about the great and wise Fugly, how much she knows about horses, how skinny that poor horse is, etc.
As far as I can tell, everything about how "great" Fugly is originated with her.
Don't you just wonder how many of those messages are posted by her, under different screen names?
ReplyDeleteOf course I put a helmet on my kids. Times have changed, and it is due diligence. Too many people expect a helmet to solve everything though, and that's actually more scary. I've seen parents watching an out of control kid on a jump course, and they think the kid is going to be okay if they fall...not! A top rider was killed in our area at a world class 3 day event. Wearing a helmet. Horse slipped and fell, poor rider landed too hard.
I really don't think the parent walking beside the horse ready to yank them off need worry about it though, any more than I would fasten the kid's seatbelt for them to sit in the car and eat lunch while it's not moving.
When kids start riding they need to learn without stirrups. They learn balance, can't get hung up and dragged, and will never make the amateur mistake of riding the leather to the ground if the saddle slips. It's just insecure enough for them to learn a healthy respect for the power of the horse.
Oh, and really be careful about the boots you get your kids. There are a few brands that look like cowboy boots but have nasty thick rubber tread soles that are guaranteed to hang up. I have mentioned it to parents, and when I politely explain my reasoning they are all over it. As parents, we know better than anyone that we don't know everything. Being attacked by a shrill idiot on a mission is guaranteed to grate on our nerves!
The shaken baby syndrome is completely different from one fall. Lots of parents try to claim that they didn't shake their child to death, he fell off a bunk bed, but an autopsy says differntly. The injuries are different. Not that I'm condoning helmetless kids riding.
ReplyDeleteI wish we would stay away from political parties on this blog. I've enjoyed this blog because it doesn't attack like fugly does, anti Christian, anti fat, anti redneck. I'm a conservative, grew up with conservatives, actively participate in conservative politics. I know absolutely no one as hateful as Fugly.
Contrary to popular belief we don't hate people on state aid and certainly don't atack everyone that believes in a higher power or go after every young adult that posted something on Youtube.
I often think she knows how awful she is and wants people to say "oh, makes sense, she's an evil republican." And trust me, we conservative rednecks want absolutely no government agencies involved in horsekeeping!
SB,
ReplyDeleteI can see the height being a problem. An adult can crack their skull open from a fall at a walk.
Gary Coleman, anyone? One fall, it's over. And he was pretty short so it wasn't a long fall.
ReplyDeleteIOW- crap happens. Live life. Be smart but not scared.
Paddy said...
ReplyDeletean MRI for shaken baby syndrome will show that the brain is contused/bleeding at front and back. The brain has bounced back and forth several times. When a person falls off a horse, the skull is hit on one side and the brain can be jolted so hard it can bounce off the other side, creating a subdural hemorrhage, opposite the area that's been hit.
I thought that horse's body language read mellow and trustworthy. And he looked like his sheath needed cleaning- that's likely why he couldn't retract it, or maybe he just had to pee like some of you mentioned. Fugly ought to have figured that out, don't you think, focused on dangly bits as she is?
Anon 4:52 -
ReplyDeleteAmen to that! (And I'm not even religious!).
Anon 4:52 here. PrairieFarmer, I just looked you up and saw that you're in my neck of the woods. Very cool place you got there!
ReplyDeleteAh "lost in translation" never had a hankering for cowboy leg. lol.
ReplyDeleteAs to Fubs, well her colt whom should be a gelding "behaves great" so he deserves to have his nuts? Well I've seen the trend to collect, freeze and geld start, and It's NOT because they are crap or are crazy. IF they are crazy people sell them. If they are crap they don't bother to pay for AI training.
And I don't mind people keeping stallions, I have trouble with people with a crap stallion telling EVERYONE else to geld their stallions. I notice she's not willing to train her baby to AI. Not worth it, now is he?
In the QH business, AI is where the money is at! Don't tell Fugs.
ReplyDeleteHSUS is actually the anti-shelter anti-rescue organisation.
ReplyDeleteFor many years, they advocated in courts across the US that dogs seized in dogfighting raids be euthanised without any individual assessment at all. No matter how young or old the dog, no matter what the dog's actual history was, they advocated they should all be euthanised.
Then a judge with some cojones stood up to them. When the Michael Vick dogs were seized, HSUS went to court to have them euthanised. Business as usual. But because there was money involved and because there was notoriety involved, some dog trainers stood up for the Vick dogs and asked the judge for a chance to individually assess and rehabilitate them.
The results? Out of the 50 dogs seized, 2 ended up euthanised. And not for dog aggression! They were euthanised because they had exceptionally fearful temperaments and just could not get over the way they had been treated while owned by Michael Vick.
And now HSUS uses the Vick dogs in their literature as if HSUS had one single thing to do with those dogs being rehabilitated and rehomed with loving families.
HSUS is a political organisation that is about the self-glorification and financial well being of their top employees. Period. If there was money and power to be had in advocating for Beanie Babies, they'd change their mission statement in a heartbeat.
Looks like Fubbys gang of beotches is at it again She posted about this in her comments yesterday and this was on FB this morning.
ReplyDeleteRE: TB Breeder needs homes for mares and Foals - UPDATE
Share
Today at 7:07am
ALL RIGHT FOLKS - The man Donald Jones, who asked for help with his TB mares/foals, is fed up with rescue & says he'll never call a rescue again and he'll never recommend ANY rescue again. So these horses are out of our hands -- God knows where they will wind up.
WHY? BECAUSE PEOPLE, DESPITE OUR REQUESTS, CALLED THIS MAN TO HARRASS HIM AND GIVE HIM GRIEF. They also called authorities to file complaints, claiming that horses weren't cared for. Colleen S saw the horses & facilities-everything was clean & well cared for, horses were clean and well -fed, buckets were scrubbed, etc. etc. . They even called the Tb racing authority and filed unjustified complaints with them.
THIS IS HORRIBLE, THIS IS A SMACK IN THE FACE for all rescues. He's now got a story to tell, a sadly TRUE story that rescues are BAD, that they won't help people/animals in need, that they cause problems. How can you expect people to rely on us or trust us to assist horses in need????
Never mind the fact that we cannot now help these horses. Where-ever they wind up ~~~ auctions, feed lots, slaughter, it will be directly due to the irresponsible actions and the "High and Mighty Attitudes" of some individuals. THAT is NOT rescue! THAT is just causing trouble and grief, plain and simple.
WHOEVER YOU PEOPLE ARE THAT MADE THOSE CALLS -- SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!!
The TB story is a disgrace. Reminds me of a Rottie yahoo group I was on but exited out of because of psychos like Fugly. People would come on looking to rehome their dog instead of take it to the shelter and they would get bombarded with "it's not the dog's fault you're having a baby, lost your job, etc." They'd also go after CL people, sounds familiar! but these same jerks would look for a "forever" home for their purebred dog at four years old once they had their championship if the dog couldn't be bred because of faults (yes dogs will still obtain a championship under the right handler even if the owner knows the dog is not what they want to breed). I know, doesn't make sense, but it happened, and I was sick of the hypocrisy. I completely understood why the people would quietly dump their dog in a shelter after being attacked by those loonies.
ReplyDeleteAs for the AI, people also use AI when they don't want to run the risk of their valuable stallion being injured in a live cover, or people want across the country want to breed. Personally, I wouldn't want to live cover for either a stud or the mare. Too much damage can be done, even in professional hands.
I hadn't heard about the Poor Man and his TB's but the story is amazingly familiar.And the sad thing is that if these TB's end up on 'Our' lot we won't be allowed to try to help them. Thanks to the efforts of Cathy Atkinson and her Crew, if the Tattoos can't be mutilated beyond recognition by the owners, the horses will die.The average person doesn't know the difference between Fugly's Favored Rescues and the ones she wants to destroy. The average person just wants to buy a horse..Flagging ads, posting filthy ads , spreading misinformation and libels,harrassing phone calls,horrid emails..Good Goin' Fugly, you've done a great job. You set this system in motion so you can't blame anyone but yourself while the 'Body Count' keeps rising, and respect for you keeps dwindling. IMO
ReplyDeleteNice lame horse being passed off as a rescue for $55oo on Fugly's blog. Do they know what an "A" rated show horse actually looks like?
ReplyDeleteObviously not anon! Unless they were planning on being in an A rated Pinto show...
ReplyDeleteDon't get me started on the Pinto 'thing' I'm still upset that I can't enter My Timmy ( world famous pot-bellied mule)in competition...true I've never been firmly convinced that all four of his legs are the same length and he tends to 'balk' at commands.But it still seems mean that he's disqualified when everyone else gets to compete..heheheh
ReplyDeleteI hear ya Helen. I'm just huffy because they're still debating on whether they'll give my spotted pot bellied pig his papers. At least he has spots!
ReplyDeleteHad a funny thing happen this morning...Turns out I do know the Lady who was trying to help the owner place the Mares and foals. I just didn't correlate the two things :) But the conversation with her led to a conversation with another Rescuer who didn't know that Fugly is Cathy Atkinson. I wonder how many people still don't 'connect' Cathy Atkinson with Fugly.
ReplyDeleteLoL@fugly's rant. That cracks me up. Seriously up. So now that's it finally turned around and bit her on the butt, she knows exactly how it feels, and instead of shouting about it on fb, she needs to post it where the majority of her readers, I assume, are. Her blog.
ReplyDeleteHelen, we need to be using Cathy Atkinson's name on this blog and every where and not our pet names. That way if someone wants to look her up like a potential employer or a rescue group this will come up in a google search.
ReplyDeleteThat wasnt Fugly's rant it was the rescue that was working on placing the horses. The Man was livid and rescue has a shitty name again due to Cathy Atkinson and her idiot followers :(
ReplyDeleteI googled Cathy Atkinson and this came up!!
ReplyDeletehttp://thelyonsheart.blogspot.com/2008/11/arlene-smacks-down-fugly-woman-blogger.html
Does anyone know who "Cl horse ad queen" is? Her blog is so lame it reads like: OMG!! SOMEONE MISSPELLED SOMETHING IN A CL AD, BURN THEM!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI love all of the "fugly wannabes" out there. I wish they could all be outed so I know who NOT to do business with in the horse world.
I have been shopping for a new horse and looked into getting a rescue. Sent in an application on one for a free horse with free transport and they said "Oh you are approved but now we need $500 and you have to figure out transport"....This along with all of these blogs and seeing these "rescue" people at work have turned me off to the idea of a rescue horse completely.
Just read FHotD about the mini
ReplyDelete"My horse .... spent a lot of time sleeping during classes when it was actually quieter than it was at night."
I don't know much about WP but wouldn't a sleeping horse have a low score?
Last year on FHotD people went 'round and 'round about show horses with "pissy" attitudes and show horse owners who wouldn't let their horses be petted.
I'm still of the opinion that show horses need their down time and visitors (folks who have no ties to the horses in the barn) should be banned from show barns. Who knows how those folks get their jollies? A bit of a banned drug in the pepperment? How about some poison? If you wouldn't let strangers feed your kid candy or randomly come up and hug and kiss them, why would you do allow it for a horse, dog, cat, llama, etc?
I've never shown, but I've been to many shows and expos over the years and NEVER would just walk up and start petting someone's animal of any kind. It's a respect thing. I like to walk around the barn and see all of the horses, but I don't go make kissy faces at them and then blog about how terrible their lives must be if they turn their back on me. Some horses do not like that kind of attention anyway. My mare loves to be "loved on" but my husband's gelding could care less. He gets nervous if I start the baby talk...LOL!
ReplyDeleteAnon 10:55 p.m.: I agree. Not every horse wants to have someone hang on them.
ReplyDeleteMy gelding is a good example of this. He's a love-bug with me (gives me little hugs with his neck and head, lets me cuddle up and kiss him, moves so I can reach the best scritches, loves to play tug with the hoof pick, etc.) as well as with a few select people (stable managers and my trainer and sometimes my husband); but he's generally just tolerant and slightly aloof with everyone else.
I think this comes from being a former lesson horse, but no matter. That's who he is. I really hate it when people mistake his tolerant attitude for a license to squeeze, poke, prod, and mash on him. The long-suffering looks he throws my way say it all.
Off-topic, but important to add: Thanks to all of you for your well-wishes and sympathy on the loss of my chicken flock and recovery of my rooster. He's still living in my basement in a cage, but he's doing much, much better. Despite the odds, he's still alive 12 days later which surprises everyone. He's on painkillers and antibiotics, and he can't stand and has little interest in pecking at food yet. Still, he tolerates being hand-fed food, and he works hard during our physical therapy sessions to stretch and contract his muscles. Basically, the vet thinks he's still in a lot of pain, but as he improves, those issues should improve as well. I'll keep you posted.
Comment on Randy Byers still training...
ReplyDeletefhotd says:
June 3, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Oh, I know he is. And he has a column in some free horse magazine, too! It’s painful. I can’t BELIEVE anyone still listens to him. You should have read my e-mails after I blogged about him. I have literally never in my life heard SO MANY horror stories about one trainer.
Is she that full of herself? Cathy Atkinson you are a stupid woman if you really think you can hurt a world class trainer w/ a sour grapes story.
anon@7:33
ReplyDeleteReplace 'he' with 'she' in those 6 sentences, and we're totally talking about Fubb!
I can’t BELIEVE anyone still listens to her.
hahahahaha!
I just read the back and forth between Fugly, her readers and a commenter called Wyckedcowgirl. It was so hilarious that she couldn't get the joke. This woman was doing what she does, grabbing one picture and making ridiculous remarks about too much weight on his neck from her hugging him, cows being roped, etc and she didn't get it! She is so good for a morning laugh.
ReplyDeletere. wyckedcowgirl, there was a poster named wyckedcougar, too. Cathy Atkinson verbally slapped her around, as well, insisting that she was a middle aged woman who was after younger men in bars. She also told her that she probably had blonde hair that showed black at the roots.
ReplyDeleteThe Fugly aka Cathy woman is hyper-senstive when someone calls her out on her own silly training methods and lack of horse husbandry knowledge. She reminds me of a fear-biter dog. Back her into a corner and point out her faults, and she goes into a rage.
Isn't it interesting that Cathy Atkinson goes off on a commenter and tells them they're not getting the point and will be banned when they raise a question too large for her tiny mind to wrap around?!
ReplyDeleteIt still freaks me out that she seriously believes a good horse is a dead horse.
And yes, in any show but a pinto show a sleeping horse would be DQ'd. I wonder how much of the wonderful herb stuff they fed him?
I went and looked at Randy Byer's site, and I don't think he has much patience with the 'it's not a horse it's a mystical unicorn that farts rainbows' people...no wonder her readers complain about him.
Randy would have her stallion gelded and riding by now *snort*
ReplyDeletehls, your rooster must be a feisty little guy. He has the will to live, that's for sure. I hope he is able to father many more little hengirls and roosterboys to carry on those strong genes of his. Survival of the fittest.
ReplyDeleteRandy would have broken the bars of Cecil's jaw by now.
ReplyDeleteCan you stop accolading someone who clearly IS an abusive trainer?
Oh, right, he isn't. Y'all know better, than the pictures/videos.
Slam, slam, slam on the jaw, is an acceptable training method.
Right.
Cathy Cecil is 5 years old now still has "baby moments" get a clue.....Geld him!!
ReplyDeleteAnon at 6:49
ReplyDeleteI think you need to re read the comments on Randy Byer. I believe that most folk are comparing RB to FHotD. That they are doing the same thing. RB and CA have both lost their credibility.
OT here:
ReplyDeleteI had previously posted a comment about the tow teenage boys who stole and beat to death a baby alpaca. I have just read that both boys will be tried as adults. YEAH for the judge! I saw some courtroom footage and a psychologist said that the boy could be rehabbed within the juvenile system. The judge disagreed because he already had convictions on phone harassement and alcohol related charges. She considers him a threat to society. GO JUDGE!!!!
Okay, one of the funniest and most appropriate word verfs EVAR:
ReplyDelete******* fuggi *********
no way, CCC!
ReplyDelete- the planets certainly are aligned today.
Paddy, pretty funny wasn't it.
ReplyDeleteFuggi, Fungi, pretty much the same if you ask me! I know, not very mature of me, but what the hey, made me laugh!
And I did mean the "two" teenagers not the "tow" teenagers. GEEEEZZZZZ!
Anon 7:29am...Now wait a minute there...I have a very pretty 8 y/o buckskin that still has 'baby moments'.
ReplyDeleteOh wait...No, he is just dumb as a box of hair!
LMAO!!!!!
But pretty as he is, he was still gelded as soon as his cahones dropped. Since Cathy Atkinson's reason for leaving the VLC a stallion is because he is an over 16HH buckskin stallion...well, it just doesn't give her rants about other people leaving their colored horses intact much credibility.
Sorry YHI, I really don't have a problem with the horse you bred for, just his current owner's hypocricy(sp?). The VLC is not a horse that would be particularly useful in my life...i.e-as a ranch horse, reining horse or barrel horse. So while I can respect people's desire to breed for a horse that is specific to their area of interest. I have no respect for someone who rants and raves like a lunatic about other people's choices to breed for what suits them.
He is perfect for Cathy she can buy him fake hair and dress him up, have someone else take care of him, Train, ride and show him Yep fubb life as a horse owner is tough...FOR YOU!!
ReplyDeleteFinally looked at the FB link of the pic of "Big yellow Cadi owned by Cathy Atkinson"
ReplyDeleteLet's start from the bottom up.
Ok looking feet but could be a tad bigger for a tall horse. SUPER short and super upright pasterns. This sometimes leads to an unfortable ride and increased liklihood of lameness. Next he is Tied in at the knee which is a VERY heritable trait. You don't want it in your foals, then mama and daddy better not have it either.
Plain boxy head....very UNCLEAN thick throatlatch even for a stallion, neck ties in low which is probably why he has so much under neck muscling, Always having to use his neck as leverage in transitions but never able to get off the forehand. Shoulder angle is not TOO bad you want point of withers to point of shoulder to point of elbow to be 90 degrees or more for a free foreleg. His looks to be just shy of 90*
Not a very deep barrel so he has less room for Lung capacity decreasing athletic performance
Front Gaskins are shorter than Back gaskins so he will ALWAYS tend to go on the forehand, even if he was ridden dressage by a pro every day of his life would be fighting that tendency.
Hind leg conformation says hock injections by age 10 at least.
Weak muscling around stifles=RED FLAG
hunters bump=sacro-iliac problems
SHort steep croup=A steep croup is one whose angle is inclined more vertically than horizontally, and is often called "goose-rumped." This conformation type reduces the range of motion of the hindquarters and also tends to have shorter distance along the croup, which provides less room for sufficient muscle attachment. In severe cases, the angle itself reduces the speed and efficiency for the horse's travel,
Last but not lease for a bitch who tears apart everything. Her hair cut and color aare hideous
saddle is too far back sitting on his kidneys and way too big for the rider.
There I have sunk to her level. See Cathy Atkinson it's not so hard to tear apart a picture after all! I should start a blog.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnon, you have not sunk to her level! You did not post the link, picture and contact information so followers can harass, er, I mean "contact" her. It takes A LOT of energy to get down to her level. :-)
ReplyDeleteBlargh. I have so much to catch up on! My computer is finally back so now I'm not stuck in 2004 on the desktop running on XP!
ReplyDeleteThis is interesting. Someone posted that video cathy posted about the mistreatment of the cattle on the craigslist forums and spoke up about fhotd. I normally just lurk there, but I finally spoke out with "That woman is mean spirited and a bully." Now, I think she had enough people to have me banned because my log in name now suspiciously doesn't exist.
ReplyDeleteQuestion... Since Cathy Atkinson has to approve comments on her blog seems she should be held accountable for the content? If so this puts a whole new spin on things....
ReplyDeleteVeeery interestink JSF.
ReplyDeletePoor fubby has to borrow a broke down truck to haul polo ponies OMG Im so embarrassed for her LMAO What will that do to her reputation?
ReplyDeleteCCC,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the update. I find it hard to follow cases involving animal abuse. Great that the judge can distinguish a threat to society because that is exactly what that idiot is.
Since Cathy Atkinson has to approve comments on her blog seems she should be held accountable for the content? If so this puts a whole new spin on things....
ReplyDeleteThere's quite a bit of case law related to that. The actual statute is 47 USC 230 (c). I'm not a lawyer, nor am I someone who takes that much interest in 230 defenses, but I think that this does protect any blog owner from liability for content even when the owner actively approves or denies comments. As long as she argues it was done in good faith it's covered.
The wikipedia article on the CDA is pretty good and seems to be updated. There's also a slideshow from a talk given by one of my favorite 'net lawyer bloggers. PDFslides about 47 230 (c)(2).
I don't think there's a cause. And, even if there is, we're back to needing to demonstrate actual harm (specifically monetary) caused by what she's doing. There isn't much of that here.
Yup Fiona, that's exactly the same thing I've been hearing for the past couple of weeks. As nutty as it sounds, Our Very Innocence precludes us from bringing a charge. If we had been guilty and ever charged anyone, even a penny, for our services we could claim damages. But since we haven't, we are left with no recourse but a civil suit against someone who (if reports are true) is barely one 'begged' bed above a Street Bum. I can't fathom how someone can 'get to be' the age of Cathy Atkinson (Fugly) witout earning something of her own (except a rotten reputation)..but it seems she has. So the entire weight of the costs of a suit would have to be borne by me and it would start with $750 in 'discovery fees', whatever that is, then it would escalate from there.The only good news I have to share is that there did seem to be some interest in the 'Reporting' practices of the Blog Host. The Agent said he would 'Check it out' and 'Get Back to Me'. But it was Lunch Time and maybe he was just trying to get me off the phone :)
ReplyDeleteHelen, one thing you can consider is documenting everything in a rational and factual fashion. Then put up a page, use good keywords and refer people to it. Won't always have an affect, but the person who tells the rational side of the story tends to get more sympathy.
ReplyDeleteIf you are the one to first document it (even to pointing out what she may have done right) then you can control the tone of the story better. Act rational and sane and most rational and sane people will pay attention to you. You can't get the crazies so you just have to put your facts out there and let the other side defend themselves.
5 more TB's in the kill pen at Enumclaw Cathy Atkinson so what are you doing? Not naming names unless they are on the Rebels lot? I thought so.
ReplyDeleteThanks Fiona, I really wasn't asking for sympathy :), I had just made such a big deal out of starting my investigation, I figured I owed you-all a 'follow-up', even if it was admitting I had failed miserably. This process has been an 'Eye Opener' for me and in the end, the Rebels will continue it's work because it's honest and it's simple and it offers the best of the best horses on the feedlot - and people will always want a bargain- But despite all my best instincts, I find myself concerned about Cathy Atkinson (Fugly)..didn't take long to understand that she's 'split' herself between Fugly and Cathy..Fugly seems to have screwed up everything she's touched and gathered a 'power-base' of real nuts creating chaos, while Cathy is fighting for 'Respectability' amongst the very group that Fugly has insulted and, if she figures these people don't talk amongst themselves, she's wrong again..They do talk and they do care about their reputations and they do resent the confusions she has created..This is just My Opinion, but when enough people connect Fugly with Cathy Atkinson, that girl is going to implode.
ReplyDeleteHelen Said:
ReplyDeletebut when enough people connect Fugly with Cathy Atkinson, that girl is going to implode.
Laverne here:
Is that a promise?
I would like to Thank Adelina Stugelmayer from RACE Equine, Katie Merwick from Second Chance Ranch and Cathy Atkinson for the death of the 20 or so TB's shipped to slaughter today from the Yakima Feedlot. I hope you 3 rot in hell.
ReplyDeleteOh, JSF, I'm so sorry. That has to be absolutely heartbreaking.
ReplyDeleteAh man, Justsayingfubb... I am so sorry to hear that. God bless those poor horses. :(
ReplyDeletePaddy said...
ReplyDeleteJSF, twenty horses... :(
they're probably at Florence Packing in Stanwood now, awaiting the ride across the border. I've driven on I-5, northbound, when a cattle truck loaded with horses from the Yakima feedlot
slowed down in the lane next to me. My friends here know how haunting it was to see those faces...
Do the people with the Seattle-area auctionhorses proboards have anything to do with Rebel's? Can a horse be purchased at Florence Packing, last-minute? I saw a CL ad today for around 5 or 6 TBsk. I went to auctionhorses and looked at them. I have my eye on the gray gelding- wishful thinking!
Hey Cathy. Semd this to an owner or breeder, and you would be laughted off the track.
ReplyDeletehttp://fuglyblog.com/?p=1938
In case you do not know, track vets are the best and rehome many horses!
Since Adelina Stugelmayer from RACE Equine, bought a TB from the feedlot, Katie Merwick from Second Chance Ranch ran the tattoo and Cathy Atkinson posted the owners name (who didnt know her horses went there) a truckload of TB's leave every week. There is nothing Rebels can do. Most people from the Auction Board are involved in some way and do not give a shit.
ReplyDeleteIt is terrible. Doesnt that make over a 100 TB's in the past month and half? I try to keep track but sometimes it is too much to stomach. I just dont get how those "women" can live with their trouble causing big mouths... Knowing your actions have sent horses to slaughter is just disgusting.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I can't stand it any longer so I've gotta ask ~ is this about "keeping your mouth shut to not make the meat man mad" or is there something more to this situation?
ReplyDeleteBecause I'm sorry, been there, gone through that BS with regard to a local rescue here about 10 years ago or so. Keeping quiet about people who dump and ship horses to feedlots and slaughter, keeping on the downlow to protect the bastards who send horses to their deaths is far, FAR worse than outing them...
I cannot abide playing nice with those who ship horses to slaughter as punishment for not shutting your mouth. Getting the word out saves a whole lot more horses in the long run than pretending you like what's going on.
The real goal of rescue should be to keep the damn killbuyers from getting any horses in the first place.
They outed the owner wrongfully. The trainer gave the horse away and the fuglyites harassed so many owners the feedlot owner got pissed and ships them with no chance of rehoming.
ReplyDeleteRebels IS NOT A RESCUE it is a listing service for the feedlot horses. Now the TB's are not listed. If Cathy Atkinson wants to out them fine but she only outs the Rebels lot. Why not Enumclaw? Because Ron the owner there told them the same thing!
http://auctionhorses.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=auctionhorses
ReplyDelete7 TB's in the kill pen here and not one Tattoo has been read?
I Remember reading they were trying to get the #'s on some a while ago and there was green stuff(ink) covering parts of the numbers. It is not to protect the feedlot owners or the people who dump the horses. It is save the horses. I dont like slaughter either I would rather have a horse alive then dead due to someone causing harassment without the full story. I suppose getting the limelight for your 5 mins of fame is too important to others.
ReplyDeleteNo SFTS, this is not about 'keeping your mouth shut' to 'play nice'.We established the fact that the Owners and the Breeders are rarely the people who dump the horses. They sell the horses to dealers who then sell the horses to someone else. Or some,as in the case of Mz Wigels, give the horses away to someone who says they will train them, or in the case of the SeaWinds stables,the owners have thier horses 'Out' on a lease-contract with private individuals who then dump them - The point I am trying to make, here, is that buying and selling horses is a legal business. There's nothing we can do about the traders and the dealers selling horses to the Feedlot.If we are going to help these horses we have to work with the people who own them at the moment, not the people who owned them last month.I agree the 'Best Case' scenerio would be for Rescues to work with the Owners and the Breeders to re-home Horses straight from the track. And I know of at least two individuals who were doing that, here in WA State, before Cathy Atkinson and her crew created the chaos with Mz Wigels (and the people at the local track). Of course Fugly learned,eventually, that she had targeted the wrong person, but by that time the People in the Industry had 'closed' ranks and the FLO had closed off access to any of the OTTB's. If you are trying to attribute any 'Noble Intent' to Mz Atkinson's behavior , please allow me to remind you that her Buddies, in the various Rescues, get OTTB's all the time and none of those owners are ever 'Outed' She uses that Blog of hers as a weapon to harm the people she doesn't like. In my opinion, the only 'Cause' Cathy Atkinson cares about is her own. And neither she or her group care about how many horses die in the process...And just to be perfectly clear...The Rebels board is not a Rescue. We are a Listing Service, working with a FLO who refuses to deal with Rescues on any level. We are a last ditch effort to save as many as we can before they are shipped to slaughter. Like it or not, the FLO owns these horses. They are his private property. He determines their fate, Not Cathy Atkinson (Fugly), or Me, or You. No one is 'Obligated' to work with us or any Rescue. If Cathy Atkinson believes she has any power to change the behavior of anyone with her nonsense, she is wrong. She has done nothing but destroy any chance that any of us might have, to work with the Industry and give them a way to re-home these OTTB's.IMO.
ReplyDeleteThe 'damn' kill buyers are doing a legal job. They are under absolutely no obligation to cooperate with rescues. The ones that allow rescues to cherry pick their lots are decent people, and need to be treated as such, instead of being harassed by self righteous nut jobs.
ReplyDeleteInsanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome 'this time.' The harassment has only resulted in ensuring that ALL the horses go on the truck. The nut jobs are accountable for at least a hundred deaths so far, but they seem to think they should not be accountable. Hypocrites.
As much as I hate slaughter, is it really kinder to let horses starve to death or to use up resources that could be put to better use? The funds used up by Champ and Hercules could have went to keeping a multitude of usable horses alive.
The process CAN be humane, but only if people face reality and work together to improve the system.
Well said Helen
ReplyDeletehttp://auctionhorses.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=auctionhorses&action=display&thread=1818&page=1
ReplyDeleteLooks like a bit of a meltdown over there and Ron is covering the Tattoos. Katie Merwick is trying to pull rank and tell them who gets the horse. Cathy is trying up her blog hits by telling them to send her magic TB rehoming sheet to all owners and we can all just read and watch the circus LOL Also in case they dont know they are not a Charity or 501.3c so why would anyone fill out an application I would never give my personal information to Tash in this lifetime
Tash is a veeeery skeeery person. I too would NEVER give her ANY KIND of personal information. She can be a very mean underhanded person who spends literally all day on the web..... Why arm her with your personal information? Nu Uh not me....
ReplyDeleteSFTS, I've gotta respectfully disagree. What the kill buyers do is not illegal. You wanna change the laws, then go after (try?) that. Until then, it makes no sense to harass kill buyers. They are the trash man, dealing with everybody's else mess.
ReplyDeleteI would agree that pushing to make sure the breeders - especially breeders like the TB industry - do their UTMOST to provide safe homes for their horses is legitimate. But I also gotta say the one that started all this latest brou-ha-ha seemed sketchy as far as how "horrible" the breeder was. Again, it is a delicate dance. Attack it politically, and walk the tightrope to get as many as saved as possible in the meantime.
Of course, I don't disagree with slaughter in essence. I just want HUMANE slaughter (no big factory types, no horrible packed trailer ridges) etc...
Helen you are absolutely correct that buying and selling horses is legal. The hows and whys of the transactions my be morally repugnant to some folks but the bottom line is this: It is perfectly legal to sell a horse to the highest bidder.
ReplyDeleteEnd.
Of.
Story.
It is a ridiculous waste of time, energy, and emotions to "OUT THE ASSHAT" who sells a horse to the kill buyer or anyone else. Some folks may find it morally reprehensible, but there is absolutely nothing illegal about it. Its like publicly outing people who have a dog chained in their back yard. I find that morally reprehensible, but there is nothing illegal about it.
Or like publicly outing people who feed their children chicken nuggets every night for dinner...
Or outing people who wear white after labor day.
Or outing people who paint their homes red.
I may or may not like any of those things, and may find some of them morally reprehensible but none are illegal.
If you want to rescue horses by all means rescue away! But defaming people for doing something perfectly legal does far more harm than good.
I think the fact that Rebels is not longer able to list the TB's so they go straight to kill and that Ron or whomever is altering tattoos on Tb's shows what kind of harm defaming someone over your own ruffled morals is.
I fully agree withthe last statement. I am proud of the hard work Rebels listing is doing and they do not deserve the crap from Cathy Atkinson and her butt of fanatics. I am saddened by the turn of events for the TB's regardless of where they came from. They have done nothing wrong and pay the price.
ReplyDeleteShelley D
As to the brokers on the feedlots, they are not the villians, they are a effect of too many horses. NOT the cause. There is a listing service in Penn that does great things listing these horses and ponies so prospective owners. I know of at least 3 Curly horses saved this way this spring. BUT the problem I have is that the "rescue" I contacted last summer REFUSED to put up $200 a head on curly yearlings that the owner wanted to take to sale. The lady repeatedly told me that she was taking them to sale, wanting me to do something, but I had such limited resources. I am NOT a rescue. I did take in 2, but there was about 12 total. Finally another owner paid for them, but it was touch and go for a couple weeks. Then the Rescue turns around and pays $600 a head off the feedlot this spring. Tell me why it is smarter to pay $600 instead of $200 to rescue horses. And I think there is a much more REAL risk on the feedlot of ending up canned. So no I don't blame brokers, least they admit it's for the money. There are less owners out there, make LESS horses. my 2 cents.
ReplyDeleteWhat DID happen to Hercules, anyway?
ReplyDeleteDid anyone see where Fubbs went AWOL upon somebody condemning people for being a part of the HSUS and PETA? Basically it was a list of whackos like herself who sit there and pursue god knows as bigger offices and deeper pockets. Basically the person was saying to stop supporting these people. Article was found here http://rtfitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/25/wyoming-representative-slaughterhouse-sue-wallis-goes-totally-postal/
ReplyDeleteNo wonder she's pissed. She didn't make the list!
Also decided to check out that mess of a blog from the link. That person is just as nuts as Fubs!
ReplyDeleteOh dear, had to look...
ReplyDeleteThe 'Cloud' herd reference is priceless. That herd is NOT 100% wild. They are totally habituated to being followed by people, talked to by people, hanging out with people, filmed by people...less 'wild' than a range herd. BFD.
The feed lot owners who allow people to high grade will steer buyers toward a horse that they think has potential, and they see the unvarnished truth about that horse rather than delusional, sentimental, 'what ought to be's.' Some horses can't be saved. Whether you poison them or eat them, they have no future. If it's fast and painless there is no difference to the horse.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWhat DID happen to Hercules, anyway?
June 9, 2010 5:55 PM
Herc is hanging out w/ Katie Merwicks 40 something other horses waiting for someone else to take care of him.
I'm sorry, but slaughter will never be fast and painless.
ReplyDeleteSFTS- In case you didn't know about it, Cathy (Fugly) thinks you are a complete and utter nutcase. She claims her information comes from others of authority in your area. It's only one of the reasons she has never featured you on her blog. She fears the repercussions.
ReplyDeleteIf you still post over there, you may wish to change that. BTW- Don't be mad at me, I'm just letting you know about all of this. It is only fair, right?
That is pretty funny cuz we believe Cathy is a complete and utter nut case too!
ReplyDeleteCathy's information is from her stupid fans or Youtube
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one, or are her blogs getting dumber by the day along with the comment section.
ReplyDelete"slaughter will never be fast and painless.'
ReplyDeleteDon't you just love it when absolutes are decreed?
Slaughter, per se, IS fast, and relatively painless.
You must be thinking of torture.
It's not supposed to be fast or painless.
SFTS, nice to see you posting here.
I have to agree with the others, of course. PF and Helen both said it beautifully.
Auctions/slaughter-houses have been around longer than the young folk shrieking about death. They have not enough experience with it.
When my old red dog passed away in my arms, it was pretty fast, I pray it was painless.
I hope all of us have a swift passing, too.
Given the choice of a slow death by starvation/neglect, or the slaughter line?
Sorry, I'd send 'em to slaughter.
My heart would break, but hey, it's been broken a lot, anyway.
Slaughter, per se, IS fast, and relatively painless.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can tell, after having viewed quite a few videos taken in the slaughter plants where the horse is trying to dodge the captive bolt and where stories of the horse still being alive when he/she is strung up by their hind legs to have their throats slit so they can bleed out doesn't sound like fast and painless to me. I wouldn't wish this scenario on my worst enemy.
You must be thinking of torture.
It's not supposed to be fast or painless.
Yes, I feel that, in many cases, the horses are, in essence, tortured in the slaughter plants to a degree; a gruesome torture IMO.
Auctions/slaughter-houses have been around longer than the young folk shrieking about death. They have not enough experience with it.
Does this make the methods they use that much more acceptable? I'm glad to know that people speak out against the atrocities of slaughter for horses. What experience does one need in order to take a stand against slaughter? Does a person have to go to a slaughter house to watch as the horses are bludgeoned to near death with that captive bolt in order to have an appreciation for what the slaughter houses are doing to the horses? Would witnessing first hand help to turn someone who is against slaughter to become in favor of it?
When my old red dog passed away in my arms, it was pretty fast, I pray it was painless.
I hope all of us have a swift passing, too.
I have watched as my own horses have been euthanized by the vet. I have never experienced the horse writhing and wretching in agony. All of mine have been tranquilized to the point of collapsing in deep sleep before the death juice is administered. They truly have died peacefully and painlessly. When the renderer comes to pick up the body, they are respectful of you and your horse and handle the body with great care in your presence. It's all a very tolerable experience and I would opt to have them euthed by a vet long before I would have them shot or send them to kill. That's just me, of course.
Given the choice of a slow death by starvation/neglect, or the slaughter line?
Sorry, I'd send 'em to slaughter.
Nobody would condone starving a horse to death or neglecting the horse to the point of causing him/her to become so cripple they can't stand up but, IMO, slaughter is not the answer either. It's never a viable option to me.
My heart would break, but hey, it's been broken a lot, anyway.
All of our hearts have been broken at one time or another; it's a fact of life unfortunately.
I just wish people who own the horses would take responsibility for their basic care and ending their lives in as painless a way as possible. I would prefer shooting the horse over slaughtering the horse any day, if that was the only other option available.
Truth is, people don't take responsibility and are successful in shoving that responsibility off on someone else, whether it be a kill buyer who sends to slaughter or a rescue who takes the horse in and, at times, does the right thing by the horse and has them euthanized.
Until owners take responsibility, this problem will continue to exist, I'm certain. Yes, that is an absolute statement.
Slaughter is NEVER the answer, IMO.
As to hounding and harassing previous owners of OTTB's, it has been shown that the zealots get nowhere when they do this. It's a waste of time and the former owners/trainers don't deserve to be stalked in this manner by anyone. These zealots have, in fact, been responsible for the deaths of a lot more horses than they have helped because of thier zeal. They are stupid, stupid people and the horses die because of them. IMO of course.
Lucerne -
ReplyDeleteI would agree that most slaughterhouses are a horrible stressful experience for horses which they do not deserve. As it is for cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys, etc., etc., etc...
I'm not opposed to slaughter for the use of the meat, hide or whatever. I'm opposed to inhumane slaughter, whatever animals is in the pipeline at the moment. "Knacker factories" like those in Europe, where an owner can walk their own horse up and through the process, where they don't have a bajillion stressed out animals milling around. That sounds great. Local, small slaughter houses. Or, even better, the traveling butcher that comes and does it right in their own pasture. Heck, can I get one of those for me when the time comes????
I think we need to get over the "oh my god we can't slaughter Flicka!" ridiculousness which gets us nowhere but complete alienation with the other side and concentrate on how do we have HUMANE slaughterhouses for all animals. Not to mention HUMANE lives...
PF, I am in that "oh no, don't slaughter Flicka" category. Hahaha. To me, no horse should be brutally slaughtered. I don't think there will ever be a humane way of slaughtering a horse. If there were, wouldn't someone who owns a slaughter house have implemented a more humane way at their plant by now, especially since there has been such an ongoing outcry against slaughter for many years now. Can you think of a humane way? I can. I think a bullet to the head, if done correctly, is far more humane than what they face now. Would I choose this method for my horses? No. I'd rather pay the vet and the renderer but that's just my choice. I certainly don't think poorly of someone else who chooses another method.
ReplyDeleteI also realize that all the animals we put on our supper table are slaughtered by methods of which we may not approve or be comfortable with. Why their demise doesn't bother me can be rationalized by saying that we have always eaten chickens, pigs, cows, etc. so the methods used to slaughter them aren't even given a thought. We just love those tasty hamburgers, steaks and turkey/chicken dinners. I have no sympathy for them being slaughtered and that is a horrible admission to make. I do, however, take great exception to the way horses are slaughtered and would use all the anti slaughter arguments to explain why I feel this way. Is that being hypocritical of me? Yes, I guess it is but it's just the way it is.
Would I go overboard in my zest to end slaughter by doing stupid things to the pro slaughter group or say stupid things to them? No. I would just state my position and do what I can legally to end slaughter and leave it go at that. If the other side wins and slaughter houses re-open here in the US, I would accept that ruling (but not like it).
I can't control what other people do with their animals; I can only be accountable and responsible for the ones in my care. I hate biting the $400+ bullet when I have to euth one of mine but, again, that's just the way it is and the way I prefer/choose to end my horses' lives when the time comes.
There are no easy answers. Heck, people have been battling this slaughter issue for years; people with a lot more experience and knowledge than I have and they haven't come up with any solutions either.
I just do what I do and respect the rights of others to do as they do with regard to ending their horses' lives. I may not like the choice they make, but I respect their right to make it.
It's the same with abortion. I would never do this myself but I don't have the right to tell someone else what to do with their body. So, I'm pro choice. OMG, string me up from the nearest tree branch for feeling that way. Hahahaha.
What the zealots are doing to the former OTTB owners is just plain wrong and I hate to know/see that horses are suffering because of it.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree with Golightly on the slaughter issue. I have just as much of my right to speak against it as anyone does for it. The abuse that goes on behind closed doors at those plants is abhorrent because those people can get away with it.
ReplyDeleteThe abuse that goes on behind closed doors at those plants is abhorrent because those people can get away with it.
ReplyDeleteBut that doesn't mean slaughter, in and of itself, is the problem. Personally, I have a lot of problems with the toxic chemicals and tainted flesh being buried. I think that is environmentally damaging and am not real thrilled with the chemicals dispersing into the environment.
A humane slaughterhouse is possible, with appropriately trained handlers and correct equipment.
I also have no problem with rendering the horses for meat. I know this really icks a lot of people out, and that's fine. But, no matter how we do it the animal is going to get recycled back into the food chain, whether it's through burial or some other process.
For those of you nit picking apart at Go Lightly's post, I think you clearly missed the entire point. I can forgive you of that.
ReplyDeleteWhat I read in her words is that slaughter or processing IS quick and painless since the horse is already DEAD!
Is it not, the DEATH part, where we all hope for quickness and a painless process for the sake of the horse (cow, pig, chicken, sheep, goat, turkey or ???) involved? This does not always happen and it is in no way assured or guaranteed for any animal.
Carry on then.
Anon <3
Lucerne-
ReplyDeleteIf the other side wins and slaughter houses re-open here in the US, I would accept that ruling (but not like it).
I am not making you the primary target, but just using that as the essential point for all of this, for those who oppose the US slaughter plants being used for horses...
For those against the US plants being reopened or new ones built, what you're saying then is that shipping the horses over the border to die in a Canadian or Mexican slaughter plant is ok then? Knowing full well that once the horses cross the border, Americans have no say over how it is handled from there. You're all fine with that?
If the borders are 'closed' by legislation making it illegal to transport out of the US to slaughter, just where do you expect those 100,000+ horses per year to go? Who is going to pay to feed them? Who is going to see to their needs? The govenrment has proven with their management of the BLM horses- they are in no position to do it. They've already got their hands full!
Are the rescues expected to jump in and clean up that mess? Could any one of us reasonably expect that to happen? Look at the way they are handling things now. Look at all of the fighting and redistribution of horses going on between the rescues in their efforts to squeeze out every last penny they can in donations.
It should be a cold day in hell when that all comes together and happens for the good of the horses. I for one, won't be holding my breath until it does.
Hey Cathy heres one for your blog ....Yea I rode a stallion unsupervised at the age of 10. I also doubled on him. Best Stallion ever. We didnt wear helmets or fancy boots we went down to the river and swam the horses in (OH GOSH) groups of riders. We did a parade of stallion for the county and GUESS WHO WAS HIS HANDLER Me a at the time I was 14 yrs old...Shame on my parents for teaching me how to handle a horse and give/get respect from him. WOW what a concept. He was not your typical 23 hr a day in a stall stallion he had free roam of the upper field to survey his girls. He was a happy horse that died peacefully at the age of 26 on the same farm. So you can kiss my horses butt at slamming kids for riding some stallions. If you dont know them and have not personally been there Shut you mouth....If you want to talk to me about we can talk I am always open for a good conversation. Just let me know.
ReplyDelete"If the borders are 'closed' by legislation making it illegal to transport out of the US to slaughter, just where do you expect those 100,000+ horses per year to go?"
ReplyDeleteAre you forgetting when California instated the ban slaughter in their state and closed their borders, that there was no real problem with surplus horses. That's just something pro-slaughter advocates use to make it seem right.
I just read FHotD open letter about the horse with multiple melanoma. FHotD is blasting M's mom for not being a mensch about giving M's horse a few months retirement or euthanasia. I get the feeling that Cathy would prefer the retirement then euthanasia.
ReplyDeleteI suspect that Cathy is angry at the wrong person. M's mom is allowing M to struggle with the realities of pet owning. It sounds like M is the one begging for someone to take the horse. I know if it were my kid I would say "We have X dollars. How do you want to spend it? Retirement or buying a new riding horse? Feel free to try and find a different solution. You have until the 32nd of Julust. Then I put the horse down.
Growing up and learning to make hard decisions is never easy. I for one wish Cathy would learn to do it.
Um, anon 3:29, are you sure they didn't go to Mexico or neighboring states, or just get dumped? Where DID they go? Did anyone check? Did anyone check with vets to see if the excess horses were euth'ed? What happened to the thousands of poisoned carcasses? As long as the 'nasty slaughter plants' are closed, no one seems to care where they went. Temple Grandin has done more for livestock by designing sane and humane kill plants than all the bleeding hearts combined.
ReplyDeleteAmericans have a long history of messing up other people's back yards so we won't have to look. For instance, the oil spill is bad. Look at the spills that happen in the mid east that never get publicity. We are the ultimate NIMBY's.
A question about the closed borders of California, did they close the borders to Mexico or to the other states? If it was to the other states how did they pull it off? Freedom of interstate commerce and all that.
ReplyDeleteCalifornia horses are still being slaughtered. There is no enforcement. They go right over the borders to the neighboring states!
ReplyDeleteI just finished reading FHotD comments. Alliecat04 and Cathy have an interesting exchange starting at 1:52 pm. Alliecat points out that mom may have said "one horse, your choice" Cathy replies that the kid should ride other peoples horses for free. Alliecat replies what free horses? Cathy replies lots of free horses oh and have her get a job.
ReplyDeleteUmm, Cathy seems to be overlooking some problems, like the economy is lousy. At least where I live, we have grad students flipping burgers and mowing lawns. Former mid level managers are delivering news papers. Teachers are summer camp counselors. Parents are staying in rather than hire a baby sitter. High school grads with some college and/or an associate degree are bagging groceries and stocking shelves. I don't see any jobs for 15 year olds around here other than selling drugs or turning tricks.
The upshot of this exchange is the two ways to see a horse, a great big pet (then it would be unconscionable to expect someone else to take over the horse) or as livestock (an animal who works for a living). If the kid got the horse to ride, then it is livestock. She has to figure out were she is on the pet/livestock continuum.
As for finding free horses to ride, I don't know of any. If a kid came up to me and asked "can I ride your horse for free"? I'd say "no". Where I got lessons as a kid, lesson horses were just that, lesson horses. They worked hard 5/6 days a week and weren't available for show work.
I don't know about you, but I would have my doubts about a 15 year old retraining an OTTB. Isn't Cathy usually fussing about getting highly qualified trainers for horses? At 15, you aren't highly qualified. Talented and experience you may be, but highly qualified you ain't.
I for one am still having a hard time wrapping my head around "retirement" for a horse. Whey do they DESERVE a retirement? I truly cannot figure it out. They laze about the pasture or barn having their every want catered to, and have to perform for their owners, on average 4-5 hours per week. It seems to be that they already have a very cushy life when they are "working" what is it they do to DESERVE retirement? It seems to me, compared to people, they live a semi retired life already.
ReplyDeleteThere are PEOPLE who have worked 50 hours per week for 30-40 years that have to provide for their own retirement, and most only get to "retire" for 8-10 years on average. Why is a horse more deserving?
Anon <3, You said, "What I read in her words is that slaughter or processing IS quick and painless since the horse is already DEAD!".
ReplyDelete---------I understand that you are interpreting GoLightly's post but the horse is not dead when they reach the slaughter plant. If the horse were already dead from other means, there would be no outcry to put a stop to slaughter. Processing of the horse's meat is not what people are up in arms about, not to my knowledge anyway.
You went on to say: "Is it not, the DEATH part, where we all hope for quickness and a painless process for the sake of the horse (cow, pig, chicken, sheep, goat, turkey or ???) involved?
--------yes, this is what the anti slaughter people want; a quick and painless death for the horse.
You went on to say, "This does not always happen and it is in no way assured or guaranteed for any animal."
---------I agree. It doesn't always happen and can't be guaranteed for any animal.
To Anon 2:14: You said, "For those against the US plants being reopened or new ones built, what you're saying then is that shipping the horses over the border to die in a Canadian or Mexican slaughter plant is ok then?"
ReplyDelete---------of course anti slaughter people do not condone horses being shipped over the boarders to die in Canadian or Mexican slaughter plants either. It's not ok. Never was. Never will be. We anti slaughter people oppose ALL slaughter plants, no matter where they are. So, it's not a double standard for us. All I was saying was that if it has been declared that US slaughter plants re-open, I will have to abide by the laws set forth by others; doesn't mean I have to like the law.
You then said, "just where do you expect those 100,000+ horses per year to go?"
---------I would want to see those horses that are deemed to be unfit, quality of life gone, extremely aged, infirm, crippled, whatever...euthanized by way of a bullet to the head if injection is not an option with their corpses taken to a rendering plant to be cut up and thrown into vats where they are cooked at extremely high temps until the mass has been reduced to liquid, then do whatever it is they do with that stuff to make other products. A bullet is not expensive. Rendering plants should not charge for picking up the carcass as they are profiting from the processing of the body anyway and don't have to pay for it. The younger, more viably sound and healthy horses could find homes with rescues or individuals who have the means to support the horse. If those are lacking, then shoot the young ones too. What else can be done? I'm sincerely asking since this argument has been around as long as the outcry against horse slaughter has existed and nobody has come up with a viable solution yet. Regardless, I still maintain that NO horse deserves to die the way they do in a slaughter plant.
You said, "Look at the way they are handling things now. Look at all of the fighting and redistribution of horses going on between the rescues in their efforts to squeeze out every last penny they can in donations."
-------I agree that it's shameful the way rescues carry on trying to beat out each other for the donations available; do everything they can to work against each other instead of in unison to help the horses but that, unfortunately, is human nature. Egos play a huge role, money is the grease that turns the wheel and they're all in competition with each other for those few donation dollars. As a result, they act more like vicious cats and put a huge blemish on the rescue world. The few that do it right are never heard from because the idiots who CLAIM to be rescues hog all the limelight. In spite of all this, though, there ARE rescue people out there who would quietly take on one or more of those 100,000 horses without fanfare or demand for the public's money. There ARE places for some of those horses to go. If the idiots would just shut up long enough and let the quiet ones step up to the plate, the horses could be spared the atrocities of slaughter.
Kestral, you said: " Temple Grandin has done more for livestock by designing sane and humane kill plants ".
---------I would love to find out what this design entails. Can you point me in the direction of this design?
I've never believed in horse retirement either. If they are too lame/dangerous to work as intended, put the horses down. Now the work might be as a pet/therapy horse.
ReplyDeleteHorses aren't standing around in their pasture talking about going to visit their grand kids, or taking up a hobby, or doing meaningful volunteer work. Neither do they reminisce about their days of glory. They live in the here and now.
Lucerne
ReplyDeletestart here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse
Well, I am going to have to disagree with that whole idea that horses don't deserve a retirement when they aren't "useful anymore."
ReplyDeleteI have one retiree at this time, I have had this horse since 1988, he was my show hunter and probably the best friend I have ever had. He took care of my ass more times than I can even remember. Yea, he is gimpy left front so that he would only be rideable at the walk and he is a bit sway backed, but other than that, he is totally healthy.
According to several posters here, I guess I need to load up my .22 and go put him down right now.
No where in my book is that okay. It would be like putting down a working dog because they can't do their "job" anymore, or putting down an aging cat because he can't "mouse" anymore, just because they might have lost a step due to age.
This whole attitude that "if it isn't useful to me it doesn't deserve to live" is a very sad commentary.
Word verf was CROCK, why how very appropriate is that given what my above post is!
ReplyDeleteLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CCC your hunter is doing what you need him to do, be your best friend. That is a wonderful job for a horse to have.
ReplyDeleteWhat does one do with a horse isn't doing a useful job for its current owner and can't be sold?
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ReplyDeleteThe retirement issues is a tough one and depends a lot, I think, on your relationship with the horse in question. There's no way in heck that I would send my current horse on down the road to whatever fate awaits him when he gets too old to be my number one guy. He's just that good. And although we've only been partners since November, I adore him. We have a big love for one another. :-)
ReplyDeleteMy previous horse was hot, rank, and annoying. After much back and forthing over the option of euthing her, I ended up rehoming her to a better home where she's remarkably happy, but honestly? I didn't care one way or another what happened to her. I thought I did, but I didn't. She was just that difficult.
I guess what I'm saying is that it all depends on what that horse has meant to you. If the horse has saved your life over jumps and been your best friend for years, then yes, it makes sense to me to put them in retirement. If not, well then all bets are off. No one way is correct, in my opinion.
You put it so much better than I did, hls.
ReplyDeleteLucerne (and anon 12:51) -
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutely right, we are all entitled to our opinion! And you should feel free to state it and know your opinion will be respected! And I'm liking this site because it does allow us to discuss - and disagree - without becoming a nasty shitfest. Thank goodness for that!
So, on that note, here's my thoughts....
It's not Flicka I worry about so much. The Flicka's of the world will have their "friends" who groom them, and give them treats and when the time comes, put them to sleep and bury them with a marker. But what about Flicka's half-brother Fred? The pig-eyed, rank SOB who now is chronically lame. Did he ever find a friend? Is there somebody to hold his head while the vet puts him to sleep? Likely not. And sure, we shouldn't be breeding for Fred. But guess what, he's still out there! And god knows we don't seem to have enough money/rescues to save all the Fred's. Shouldn't we plan for the BEST case slaughter scenario for Fred? Because if nobody gives a rip about Fred it's likely it will be hard to find anybody to pony up $400 to "put him to sleep." Yet Fred doesn't deserve to be stacked in a double-decker and ran through a warehouse factory slaughterhouse any more than Flicka does.
I also tend to think our opinions our formed by our experiences. Take me for example. I grew up with horses and dairy cows. I was in dairy 4-H and would buy calves and raise them til the "freshened" (first calf) and then sell them to my neighboring dairy as milk cows. Lily, the sweetest, love everybody, let you sit on her cow...Jasmine, the pedigreed "princess" who knew it, she would raise her head HIGH in the showroom...Rosemary, the rather coarse calf who hated everybody but LOVED ME - after I sold her to the dairy she would pick up my scent when I walked home from school and I could hear her mooing for me (she had a very distinctive moo, sounded like an elephant!). Cashmere, the Jersey calf who would play dead because she hated to show lead and then would eat all her ribbons.
I would go into the pasture and call them and they would all come running. Loved those cows. Sold them to the dairy when they were of age. They had productive lives being milked and having calves, and, when they were no longer productive, they were sent to the regional slaughterhouse and summarily stuffed into pens with strange cows, forced through shoots, and yep slaughtered, just like a horse. So we can have hamburger in our stores (most store hamburger is from our gentle, hard-working dairy cows...).
At the time, that was just the way it is. In fact, it is STILL the way it is. Do I feel guilty about it now? Hell yes! Not because they were slaughtered. But because they were shipped off, packed in a trailer, to a strange place, scared, traumatized and THEN slaughtered. And if you don't think cows get scared, well, that's just because you don't know how to read them. Same thing as people with no knowledge of horses not realizing a horse is threatening to kick or is panicking.
And pigs? Don't even get me started on pigs! THEY ARE SMARTER THAN DOGS! Sure as hell smarter than horses! Don't you think they know what's coming down the pipeline? Heck yes!
AND PART II (sorry...)
ReplyDeleteWhy, why, why is it okay to view our other animals as nothing more than a piece of meat but not okay when it comes to a horse?
And keep in mind, while you (and most of us on this site) might have a large affection for horses. There are many people in this world that could care less about them. I take "interns" on my farm. Finally, this year, I have one (out of about 8 now), that is interested in my horses. All the rest - they LOVED the poultry. Turkeys, chickens, ducks...Gave them names, tamed them, spent time with them every day petting them, etc...They could and did, bond with the poultry. The horses were just big and scary. So keep in mind, many other folks really, really don't buy into the "horses are different" argument. But...most of those folks would agree that ALL animals deserve humane slaughter.
And yes, I think horses can be slaughtered humanely. Just like cows, chickens, pigs, etc...How do you do it? Well, just like cows and pigs. Give them a bucket of feed, nice scratches, and while they are distracted, bullet to the head. Then you quickly slit their throat and string them up to bleed out. That's the same way the on-farm butcher guy does it for cows and pigs. I don't see why horses has to be any different.
Even if you take to a slaughterhouse, if it is a small, local place. Where you can take your own animal and walk them up. That is a MUCH better scenario. Because you are there with the animal. And it is calm and quiet and not a huge factory forcing as many animals through as possible.
And I totally, totally, totally...agree that slaughter houses are horrible places. That's why your need small, local ones. With lots of local oversight. I.e., you and me checking it out, taking our animals there, making sure it isn't being run by a bunch of evil idiots who enjoying inflicting pain.
I would also highly recommend re-thinking that it's no big deal to eat those hamburgers, sausages, chicken wings., etc., etc...Go check out some of the incredibly horrible, nasty, disease ridden lives our farm factory animals live. Slaughter is a blessing for them. And then go find a local farmer raising animals like they should. On grass for goods sake! In open air, what a thought! And with calm, quiet, as stress free as possible slaughter days.
Sure, the meat might cost you more. But guess what, American's eat way too much meat in our diets anyways. Budget for healthy, humanely raised meat and you are not only supporting raising animals the way they should be, but you will be healthier yourself...
And I could go on and on, (obviously...) but time for dinner now!
Thanks so much Kaede and GoLightly for the links to Temple Grandin's website and the wikipedia pages. I skimmed over them but will go through them in detail tomorrow. I don't have a problem with slaughter houses restraining the animal's head in a contraption (pictured on the wikipedia pages) so that the captive bolt meets it's mark the first time around. One video I saw showed a horse dodging the bolt repeatedly and I can't remember if it finally found its mark or not. It was heart wrenching to see that poor horse trying to escape that bolt but I guess I'm a softie when it comes to horses, dogs and cats and can't stand to see them abused or even slightly mistreated. I consider the captive bolt (as I saw it used in that video) to be abusive and unnecessary because the horse was not restrained and tried desperately to get out of that box he was in.
ReplyDeleteI see no problem with "retiring" a horse or dog or cat at all. If the owner can afford to continue to care/feed/vet/trim/worm the horse even after the horse is no longer "useful" and the owner wants to provide a loving environment for her "useless" critter, so be it. When you love an animal, you naturally want to provide for his/her needs for as long as you can, as long as doing so does not put a strain on your relationships or budget. My horses stay with me for life. They have left the yard...dead (because they were euthanized) and that's the only way I hope the remaining ones I own leave my yard. Of course, I know that if I became ill or disabled, I would have to find homes for them but, barring that, I expect and intend to have them with me for the remainder of their natural lives, whether I can ride them or not. Again, that's just me though and everyone has to do what they feel is best for them and the animal in their care. I wouldn't even think for a minute of telling them what to do.
I'm looking forward to reading about Temple. I'm sure her insights will help me to understand Autism a lot better than I do now.
I also want to learn about bi-polar disease; what causes it, what makes those afflicted tick and how to handle being around a bi-polar person when they are having an episode. After all, education washes away ignorance.
PrairieFarmer: You hit on an essential element of sustainability in your discussion of the best way to produce and purchase meat. There are lots of reasons to support locally-raised, grass-fed, free-range meat that was slaughtered and packaged at a small local slaughterhouse. From the health benefits (the meat actually contains more beneficial vitamins and minerals) to the humane aspect of the animal care and disposal to the fact that this model keeps money in the pockets of community members instead of shareholders, it makes sense to pay a bit more for food that is locally produced.
ReplyDeleteI always note that locally-produced food truly is the one issue that transcends race, class, ethnicity and political affiliation. We all benefit from knowing where our food comes from. Wendell Berry put it best when he noted in his lovely essay "A Defense of the Family Farm" (1986) that "Land that is in human use must be lovingly used; it requires intimate knowledge, attention, and care." (We need look no further than the BP oil spill to see how utterly correct that observation truly is.)
Unfortunately, until our larger culture catches up to this notion (it's happening, but slowly) and until we can rebuild our local infrastructure that will serve communities large and small (goodbye Walmart, hello a patchwork of local producers and seasonal eating), we are stuck with such anachronisms as slaughter plants. The good news is that USDA has worked hard to make the inevitable outcome (death) in the slaughterhouse as stress-free and painless as possible. Temple Grandin has played a big role in that. It's definitely not a perfect system, but I would certainly rather buy meat from an animal slaughtered in the United States than in Mexico, say.
fhotd says:
ReplyDeleteJune 11, 2010 at 1:14 pm
My gray mare has some melanomas but seeing as how all she does is eat grass on retirement board, it’s not really a problem. :)
Can she really say this horse isnt in pain?
I looked it up in a Horse Vet book and Melanomas are described as being a tumor of pigment cells in the skin. It's common in older horses. The tumors are not caused by exposure to sunlight (as with humans) but are color related. They say it's called the "old grey horse disease". They are commonly found on the underside of the tail or around the anus but they can show up on any part of the body. They are firm and black or gray. They grow slowly and are unlikely to spread so they are left untreated. They can be removed by complete excision is difficult depending on their location. Cimetidine is a med used for stomach ulcers and has been useful in causing regression of the melanomas in some horses. It says nothing about the horse being in any pain. They have to be biopsied in order to determine if they are cancerous. I haven't read any further in the book because there's a lot to read pertaining to diagnosis of cancer and various treatments. However, pain doesn't seem to be a factor. I guess if they become as big as footballs or something, then it would be time to either have them removed or put the horse down.
ReplyDeleteSo, Cathy is right on this one. Seems her horse is not showing any signs of discomfort or pain.
Don't forget humane treatment of farm workers!
ReplyDeleteIf an owner loves and wants to care for a horse, that horse HAS a job and a purpose. The only time I would get concerned is when the animal is in chronic pain, clearly unhappy or dangerous. When keeping the animal alive is more for the humans to say "I keep my horses alive".
If, as I read it, M can afford 1 horse. She wants to ride and show. The horse isn't in pain, but isn't useful for it's current owner. She doesn't want to give the horse a retirement. I think she should put the horse down. She is just having a teen age moment where is doesn't want to face economic realities. She can keep (and love) her current horse or put him down and get a new one to ride/show. She wants to have her cake and eat it too. This is part of growing up. Think of all the things teens collect ("It's valuable!") only to realized that in other peoples eyes it's trash.
Lucerne, I have seen horses with melanomas that crack open and bleed every day. That HAS to be painful... It has to be.
ReplyDeleteI've seen them so bad on a purebred Andalusian mare that her tail was 6" away from her body because of the HUGE tumors on the underside and attached to her anus. Defecation looked painful.
I saw a gray gelding that had them growing in his throat and he was slowly being choked to death.
I do not agree that they are all non painful. Horses would not tell us anyway. They are incredibly stoic animals.
I do realize that my world is a rather rarified world where my horses are part of my family, just the same as my dogs and cats. While the idea that horses are just livestock or they are just a commodity to be used is totally against everything I believe, I do realize that it does exist in a major part of the world.
ReplyDeleteI know there are soooo many who will disagree with me, and that is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but horses ARE different from other livestock, at least in the USA. I could of course go on forever on the subject, but I won't.
I will also say that all animals, no matter what they are raised for, deserve to be treated humanely. Mass production as far as anything to do with animals is never a good thing. Quality control suffers terribly thereby creating suffering animals.
I most definitely prefer euthing a horse or any animal who can't do his "job" to shipping them off to auction or just dumping them because they aren't useful anymore.
My previous comment was made because there were a few "blanket" statements made about horse retirement. I truly despise that mindset.
Anon 1:49, I understand what you are saying and you are probably right; the melanomas you describe may very well be painful. I was just saying that the book doesn't address whether or not the horse is in pain, that's all.
ReplyDeleteAs I said in my post, if the melanomas are huge and definitely if they are causing some sort of distress (as you describe in your examples), then excision or euthanasia is the answer, to me anyway. I would not keep a horse alive who had a melanoma in his throat. He would have been euthed. I would have had the melanomas in the horse's butt that could very well constrict the passage of feces excised or have the horse euthed. Those, clearly, are melanomas that, in my opinion, are a threat to the horse's well being and quality of life and I would not put the horse through living that way.
Since Cathy did not describe (or did she?) the area of the melanomas or the size of them, we can only assume they are small enough to not be a serious bother or threat to the horse.
As to the presence of pain, it would be hard to tell if the horse is in pain unless they are showing outward signs of pain, which can only be determined by observation of the horse; not some lackluster description (if one exists at all) of the melanomas written on a blog.
Somehow, in spite of how mean spirited Fugs is in her postings, I don't think she would knowingly allow one of her horses to suffer in pain and not do something about it. Of course, I could be wrong but I doubt it.
Well, there was Champ.
ReplyDeleteThat's the common ground we share, Lucerne.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't think anyone here reading is a willfully cruel person, and I've never felt that way about Cathy and her treatment of horses/animals. That isn't quite the point, in my opinion.
Her treatment of people, see, that's another story.
I've tried to point this out, all over the place:)
And I know, and have felt, and am currently experiencing, the pain of watching willful neglect of an animal.
Me being nice won't change the situation, and neither will getting nasty.
I report it, and report it, and report it.
As dispassionately as possible, which justabout kills me.
Cruel people are out there.
I sure hope someday we can outnumber them...
gah.
To Luckier Horses.