Wednesday, May 12, 2010

Horse Racing

In the struggle for change there are tools at our disposal that have proven effective over the decades. One such tool is voicing a grievance by letter or phone call which is a powerful tool in any arsenal and, for this reason, needs to be part of a well orchestrated campaign. Failure to do so, as we have seen with a recent FHOTD post, will ultimately work against the horse rescue cause. I hold anyone not showing restraint equally responsible for the deaths of horses as the owner who dumped the horse.

To see how to effectively use a grievance campaign and to understand how it can go terribly wrong we first need to understand the circumstances surrounding rescue work. Justsayingfubb was kind enough to get this statement from a race horse owner which describes horse retirement in the racing industry:

From another owner trainer

What we are seeing in the Thoroughbred industry is a higher level of awareness. Over the last ten years or so people have learned that just giving a horse away doesn't guarantee it a good home for life, chances are it will end up in a slaughterhouse. While there will always be people working with horses that just don't care where a horse ends up if they are handed a few hundred bucks, those people are thankfully quickly becoming the minority. Most racetracks have instituted anti-slaughter policies, with Suffolk Downs' being the best so far. Racetracks in many states now deduct money from purses earmarked for TB rescue, and rehabilitation. Philadelphia Park has a barn where horses can be placed if the owners no longer want them. The horses are retired, and re-homed. There is a remarkable number of people going to low end auctions every week to find TB's and save them from killer buyers.

A rescue would have to realize that not all racehorses can be rehabilitated, or re-homed, and be willing, for the good of certain individual horses, to euthanize. Someone very experienced with racehorses should be consulted in those instances. The Thoroughbred industry leads all other breeds in rescue, rehabilitation, and re-homing of ex-racehorses. Most people in racing love their horses, and want to see them live long, happy lives after their racing careers are over.

An anonymous poster described the effects on TB rescue as a result of FHOTD's recent failed attempt at voicing grievances:

…I am very, very angry that Cathy Atkinson's latest temper tantrum has closed off our access to the TB's... we were already crippled by not being able to 'flip lips' and check out the pedigree's. every single time we tried to advertise these beautiful, well bred, horses the past owners, no matter how far back or innocent, were harassed by nasty phone calls...So we stopped posting pedigrees to protect past owners. Now, because of the Frisco thing...all of the phone calls to the past owners and trainers and even the track officials - The FLO has closed off all access to the TB's - Doesn't matter that Cathy Atkinson screwed up, doesn't matter that her follower's didn't know what they were talking about. It doesn't even matter that no one knows what they were trying to accomplish..All that matters to me is that the FLO has decided that we won't be allowed access to the TB's anymore and there's nothing we can do about it..All of the TB's will be shipped to the Slaughterhouse,..period, full stop..They will still be dumped, but no one will see them, no one will be able to help them and not a darned thing has been gained..There must have been a 'point', but I'm just not seeing it...So any explanation by 'wiser' minds would be gratefully appreciated.

To summarize, it is suffice to say that FHOTD effect on horse rescue has been disastrous. She has started a campaign without knowledge of the industry or consideration of consequences. This has resulted in her followers harassing individuals to the extent that they no longer want to work with rescues and Fugly has greatly sabotaged rescue attempts which has cost many horses their lives. It is truly sad to see the energy of her followers working against horse rescue when we could imagine the change for the better that could have been possible if their energies had be properly used. The best advice for those who read FHOTD is to join a rescue group and put your energies there rather than relying on Fugly for direction.


  1. Demonizing an entire industry, like racing, guarantees that horse rescue advocates are perceived as hormonally unbalanced nutcases.

    The infighting amongst rescues is guaranteed to destroy the credibility of all rescues.

  2. I question the truthfulness of the post that is featured in this subject because I posted the following on the previous subject:

    "Others do it too. I would place a huge bet on it with regard to those who want the tattoo numbers of TBs on feedlots. They then do the research and contact everyone who was ever even associated with the horse (owners, trainers, barns, etc) to do 2 things: Reem them out for letting that horse end up in a kill pen and coerce them into giving money to the "rescue" that has the horse because, after all, it was their responsibility in the first place to ensure the horse was protected from going to slaughter and they should pitch in to help financially care for the poor horse now that he/she is with a "rescue".

    Happens all the time. The problem with that is, these little stunts the zealots pull only serve to cause the doors to shut, preventing any future TBs from getting the help they need. Their stunts, in effect, are doing the very thing they purport to ward against....sending those horses to slaughter.

    So, if they want to seal those horses' fate, they should keep doing what they are doing. In their own stupid little "look at me and what I accomplished" world....they are killing a lot more horses than anyone else ever has."

    I find it too convenient that, all of a sudden, the "flo" has now prevented the rescuers from having access to the TBs on his lot.

    Sorry, but he doesn't give a care whether previous owners are contacted because all he cares about is money and he knows the rescue people will always pay the high prices demanded of the horses. His acquisition of their money is paramount.

    I think the post that is featured here was made up by the poster who didn't sign it either, not that it really matters.

    I'm not buying the BS from whoever posted it solely because I conveniently provided the scenario in my post.

    I think the post in question was posted to garner sympathy and make it look like Fugs and her followers caused this problem.

    While this problem does exist and other people have done this (calling previous owners, etc), I highly doubt that "all of a sudden" this problem has reared its ugly head on the "FLO" lot.

  3. While this problem does exist and other people have done this (calling previous owners, etc), I highly doubt that "all of a sudden" this problem has reared its ugly head on the "FLO" lot.
    May 12, 2010 7:14 AM

    No it isnt a new problem at all. The answer was to not read the tattoos, and leave it up to the new owner to contact the owner in a polite way, to get history.
    This kept the feedlot door open.
    I think Fugly, RACE Equine and Second Chance Ranch were in cahoots to buy the horse and smear the owner to fuel the fire of hatred for cber/sam/rebels that Fugly harbors.
    Why else would they not contact the owner to learn that the Wigles did not dump the horse? Their trainer gave it to someone who in turn sold it to the feedlot.
    This could have been used in a positive way to educate them to the problem as they have done a few times w/ Enumclaw Auction TB's after this incident.
    So it is a vile act of hatred plain and simple that will kill many more from this lot.


  4. Oh I'm not saying that Fugs didn't deliberately find out about the horse's history specifically to use it as a tool against cber/sam/rebels. I'm sure she did.

    What I am saying is I question whether or not Chuck has now declared that sam/rebels can't have access to any more TBs because of it.

    Bottom line for him is money and he knows he can get a LOT more money from sam/rebels' supporters for that horse than he could anywhere else, no matter what condition the horse is in.

    Saying he has shut the door on them is simply not believable.

  5. Since Fritz was sold for $1,000.00, would he have been at risk for going to slaughter? I don't see how anyone could make money off him at that price.

  6. One thing that I would like to point out. An anti-slaughter policy on a track does not and should not have the power to trump existing law.
    It is not against the law to allow a horse to be sold for slaughter.
    Owners may dispose of their property in whatever legal manner they deem fit and/or convenient.
    Someone said in the previous thread that TB owners had a responsibility to see that their horses do not end up in slaughter venues.
    Really? Because other people who have no viable interest in the property owned say so?
    Wrong. They are only required to abide by existing law governing care and disposal of said "property."
    I have yet to meet the FLO or KB that has any interest in giving uncompensated time to rescuers.
    At this point, rescuer is synonymous with radical anti-establishment. That is one hell of a badge to be wearing to a credibility conference.
    I love chickens. Doesn't mean I am going to wake up tomorrow and determine that no one should be allowed to commercially raise and eat them. And then, proceed to lead a movement on Capitol Hill.
    Equines are considered to be livestock. No matter how royally bred.
    It is emabarrassing actually. To be in any way associated with the ignorance and instability of some supposed lovers of horses, Starbucks, free money, and dubious fame.

  7. "Saying he has shut the door on them is simply not believable"

    It would be great to get a response to this. But, I can see owners saying that we will only sell to FLO Y because he doesn't let people make me look like an abuser online. I won't go to FLO X because last time that group posted misinformation about me online.

  8. Chuck is a businessman, but also a human being doing a legal job. His facility looks clean and well run. He has allowed horses to be purchased from his lot by the public in the past, but having a bunch of loons stalking him may indeed have made the extra money more of a PITA than it's worth.

    Rebel has clearly stated that they are no longer a purchasing rescue, but a listing service. Simply finding new owners for the horses is a lot more productive than all the finger pointing and drama. Rescuing a nutcase cripple makes for good press, but fills a slot that should be occupied by a horse that is sane and sound.

    So, the question would be...who knows Chuck well enough to ask him directly? With an open mind? Rebel has stated clearly that they no longer have access to the TB's. Speculation on Chuck's motives or actions without any evidence is just more grist for the gossip mill.

  9. Fritz was sold for $575 not $1,000. That is not much different than slaughter price he could get.
    50 TB's have been shipped since the Fugly post so yes it will and has happened.

  10. "Speculation on Chuck's motives or actions without any evidence is just more grist for the gossip mill"

    Yes, this also why I hope that different rescues talk about their experience. It would be helpful to get as accurate a picture as possible and also to know the best way to participate.

  11. If Chuck is like any of the KB/Trader buyers that I have known, he could care less where the horses he buys ends up as long as he is making a profit on them.

    I'm not trying to villianize KB/Trader buyers. The ones I know are good horsemen and amazing at noticing things that most of us miss. But buying and selling horses is their business. The horse goes to whoever is willing to pay the price tag placed on the horse.

    What cracks me up is how pissed off the 'rescues' get over the 'jacked-up' prices. Do they really think that the KB's they bad-mouth and run down don't hear about that? Jacking up the bet. Cause who the hell wants to give a good deal to someone who is shooting off their mouths about what an A-hole you are?

    And it's not like they HAVE to buy horses from the KB off of the feedlot. How about just outbidding them at the sales? An extra $50 or a $100 will usually outbid a KB every time. Or actually going and picking up some of those horses in terrible shape that are listed on Craigslist, usually for free? But where is the emotional roller-coaster in that?

    If all Rebels is is a bunch of people who are willing to walk through Chuck's herd, evaluate and list horses he has available, then cudos to them for taking the time and effort to give some of those horses a possible second chance.

    I think the emotions are running pretty high on both ends. Fubs seems to have a perpetual hard on for anything CBER/Sam/Rebels related...and probably with good cause, but she is still associating with several people who used to be part of CBER. One who seems to be warehousing 'rescue' horses and the other seems to be rescuing and then charging an arm and a leg for what they 'saved'. How is that any different than what CBER was doing in the first place?

    I'm sure Chuck is irritated and pissed off, that yet again...he is drug in the middle of 'rescue' drama. If he has shut off the tap to the TB's who can blame him? If it's emotional blackmail so he can charge a higher price to rescuers, who can blame him? In the end, he is the one who bought the horse and if he doesn't want to give it away to rescue or let others have a chance at it, that's his perogative. No one to blame except the people who have pissed him off to the point of 'straight to kill'.

  12. Sooo, Chuck let Fritz go for $575.00, not much more than he could have gotten for slaughter price. Wow, sounds like a terrible guy. Do the decent thing and get trashed for it, plus get everyone he's ever bought a horse from trashed. That'll teach him.
    C'mon folks, we all want to pick up the next Snowman! Would we honestly turn down the money? Raised hands...anyone?!

  13. Chuck will rarely deal with anyone because of the whole Rescue drama. If you go to the lot he is hot on his 4 wheeler asking what the hell you want in less than 5 min because he lives down the street.
    He lets the Rebels pick through the horses once a week to list the ones that pass assessment and that still have quality of life. Horses that are sound or serviceably sound in both body and mind. These horses are useable with a future in an equine relationship either for pleasure, competition or companionship.
    He has a few people he will sell to but most he directs to Sam/Rebels.

  14. BECs yep. Could you help me clear up another little bit of grossly exaggerated misinformation? Where In The Hell are 1,000lb. OTTBs bring .575 per pound?
    I am so sick of rescue allowing the public to believe that these horses are going on the trucks at $600-$800 a piece.
    No, they are NOT people. .20-.25 cents per pound max! Rescues have been padding the purchase prices and fluffing off their supporters for a long time. Not to mention working WITH the FLOs and KBs in turning a profit.
    Keep it REAL!!!

  15. So 'evil kill buyer' directs some of the healthy sound sane horses to a group of buyers that he trusts? Sounds like Fubb is jealous that she is not in the trusted group to me.

  16. The above was not directed at you Kestrel.

    The $800 OTTB going to slaughter is a common theme with the OTTB rescue radicals.
    If horses were bringing .80 per pound there wouldn't be so many $100 or FREE horses on CL you can believe that!
    And skinny horses or light horses bring even less per pound than the double layer Grade A fattys.
    I get so mad with these rescue experts and the people foolish enough to donate to the ongoing suffering of cripples.
    And if they were bringing that much anywhere believe that dealers everywhere would be burning the rubber off of their rigs to be there with full loads!

  17. On FHOTD Snowbunny says:
    There are many people who tried their power play and it didn't go their way so they let in a huff.

    Snow is talking about CBER in the above quote. Power plays and misinformation is common in many non-profit areas so I wouldn't be surprised if this was the motivation. It does leave me with doubt as to how much of the information about CBER was true.

  18. This is the post from FHOTD were REBEL and CBER are mentioned:

    Repost: $150 for a bullet and other CBER fairy tales!

    Since it has become apparent that there is a new crop of suckers who don’t understand the history behind Columbia Basin Equine Rescue/aka Rebel’s Feedlot Sales or whatever they’re calling it now, here is a repost from last year that should enlighten you a bit. To clarify, since the time of this original posting, CBER lost its 501(c)3 and is not a charity anymore.  However, it continues to operate with a new name and the same business model – marking up horses at Chuck Walker’s sleazy horse dealership in Zillah, Washington, and saying if they are not purchased, they will go on the kill truck.  This inevitably results in people paying to “rescue” the horses – at around 3x their actual value for kill.  Chuck and $am split the profits and laugh all the way to the bank.   
    FYI, Chuck has allegedly been threatening for literally FIVE YEARS not to sell horses any more due to Internet drama. Funny how they kept getting sold. Either $am makes it all up to scare people into silence (my money’s on that) or Chuck is way more greedy than he is concerned about internet drama (also likely). At any rate, anyone who thinks that what is said online will affect Chuck’s decision whether to sell a horse for meat for $200 or to some kind hearted sucker for $600 is smokin’ crack. Never has happened. Never will happen. So here is a blast from the past post that might give some of you new $am fans a thing or two to think about before you think that she is in it “for the horses.” She’s in it for her wallet – always has been, always will be. She’s not a rescuer and we’ve caught her red-handed in all of the following plus much, much more. 

  19. Oh, I didn't think it was Dena! Thanks for the extra info on pricing, it makes a lot of sense. And I meant 'evil kill buyer' facetiously, too. I love your chicken analogy.

  20. >She’s not a rescuer and we’ve caught her red-handed in all of the following plus much, much more.<

    Who is "we?"

  21. FHOTD list seven reason as to why SOS is better than CBER. This is draftlover's response to FHOTD's list.

    On FHOTD draftlover says:
    1. SOS takes a much lower markup (if at all – she takes nothing on the old horses)
    *** She takes something, i have watched there fund raising on ABR under the truck is coming scam and those prices are inflated right there with her 300.00 QT..

    2. SOS will take returns.
    ***They may take some returns but not all of them and when they repost they use their feedlot pics.Why not show the new better improved pics and tell the story of where these animals came back from.She has some posted now she got back and put up the original skinny ugly pics..Why is that ?

    3. SOS has an adoption contract.
    ***Unless it is notarized the contract is not worth the paper it is written on.

    4. SOS does reference checks and site checks.
    ***So do many other people but they did have a horse listed last year as lost and were trying to find out where it went.So not everyone lives in a perfect world..

    5. SOS never puts a horse back on the truck to slaughter, no matter what. Once it is off the lot, it is off forever.
    ***HOW do you know fugs? Do you live with sos 24 hours a day? They raise cattle also .Do they keep their cattle as pets or do they butcher them?

    6. SOS will go pick up a horse of theirs if they find out it is not being properly cared for. I have seen Shawna drive 4 hours to do so herself.
    **well and as i recall reading when shawna was defending CBER she hauled for CBER to but she doesn’t haul for free..She gets paid for it.

    7. SOS will pay for vet care on horses that do not have an adopter yet. CBER has never taken a horse off the lot that did not have an adopter to pay all of its bills.
    ***Actually SOS raises funds to pay shoeing and vet bills and she threatens her volunteers with the B.S. that if they do not put forth more effort to raise funds for the horses then she will not list them anymore..WOW You wanna talk emotional blackmail…1 of her best supporters was on another group recently saying no Shawna did not get the horses feet done,and why should she when she does not own the horses. She is waiting for donations to get their feet done..LOL…See Fugs you are wrong on many accounts because you wanna believe the good in all these rescues…Her own supporters tell the truth every time they answer a question on ABR or any other groups. 1 posted recently on how she felt so bad for 1 horse it took her hours to comb the mud out of the mud caked tail of the poor horse..GEE the horse had been at SOS for over 5 months. lol..1 horse fell over dead in her arena after she had the vet diagnose it over the phone the day before..Someone said it sounded like west nile virus..Maybe a necropsy should have been performed so that they could have ruled out an infectious disease since she has a horse hotel and QH breeding stables on the same property as her RESCUE.
    ALSO why has she not put up the horse that is looking for a home in puyalup that came from SOS.There is a woman named sherry trying to place her horse and SOS doesn’t even have the common courtesy to post it on their website and help her out…But the horse is posted on about 4 other horse sites so good luck in finding a home for her sherry..If i was closer i would take her..

  22. This is Snowbunny's response to FHOTD's comments about REBEL and CBER:

    On FHOTD Snowbunny says:
    There are hole and misleading information in this blog. CBER dissolved it was not shut down…I do much about CBER since I was a volunteer for years. There are many people who tried their power play and it didn't go their way so they let in a huff. I am in agreement with sending a horse be put down if there is a problem. There are few people who can afford to care for a horse that is old and lame. Of Course if you plan on begging for buck from everyone to save a horse that is your choice. But wouldn't it better for the animal be be released of pain? It is horrible how egos and pedestal climbing will bring out in people. Such a shame for the horses. Of course if you are thick skinned ad can see the TB’s going to slaughter just because you have ability to shame people instead of shaming the town crier adopter. WHO cares where the horse came from the main thing the horses is “safe” Isn't that what rescuing is Saving horses? Rebels Feedlot is doing a good job finding homes for horses. They are not a rescue nor do they rehab. It a group of people working together with a single purpose SAVING HORSES. Nice to know that people have nothing better to do then jump on a band wagon of hate and discontent…..

  23. fhotd says:
    May 10, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    Amazingly enough, it actually costs the EXACT SAME AMOUNT to keep an old, lame horse as a young, sound one!

    ‘Least ’til they start losing their teeth.

    What she meant was most people have the means for a useful horse only, not a pasture puff like Herc that is a symbol of your ego Fubb

  24. Oh yeah Fubbs and SCR beg for donations to support him... My bad.... LOL

  25. I have to agree with BEC's post at 9:15. The FLO is out to make money. So are the rescues, so is flub and so aren't we all. Money can't buy love in some cases, but it sure as shit pays the bills and keeps the electric ON!

    One thing being overlooked however is this. If Chuck were to 'close off' the TB's to everyone, as stated by Dena and Kestrel- It's his decision and his choice. By doing so he is not only protecting the owners, but also the buyers who send the horses to him.

    Trainer X sells the horse off to Trainer Y thinking the horse got a second chance at a good life. The owner, Trainer X and Trainer Y are all happy campers.

    Trainer Y takes the horse to Chucks place and turns a small profit, putting the horse in harms way. Rescue people come and 'flip the lip', track the horses information down and post it in hopes of sparing one horse, this horse, the horrible demise to come.

    But along the way, someone like flub intervenes. She runs off on a blind rampage with no idea about the truth and no care as to what the final outcome will be. Neither does she care where the shrapnel will fall or the casualties will be buried.

    In making a public display of her tantrum, spelling out the turns in life this horse has faced and naming names, she has opened the flood gates of ignorance and let the hate games begin.

    So Chuck shut off all access to the TB's. He is protecting Trainer Y who brings the horses to him. He is no more than masking their identity for doing something that is still perfectly legal.

    No need for the underground type operations. No those are the flubs network playing fields. And some day those tunnels will collapse.

  26. I have a question ... RACE Equine got Fritz for $575. and are now begging to support him. What kind of Rescue saves a horse when they cant afford it?
    Damn now I am forced to go find Fubby's guideline for how much you need to have in savings to own a horse.

  27. Fritz looks like a heck of a good prospect. Young, sound, put some cross training on him and he's worth a decent chunk of change. The 'rescue' will make a *gasp, say it ain't so martha!* PROFIT! Drama reigns again.

    RACE's unethical behavior has apparently doomed any other TBs that Chuck may have cherry picked for re-homing. Hopefully he will continue to work under the radar with the people he can trust. Rescues and FLO's should be working together to put down the horses that are in pain (yes. Slaughter would be putting a horse down.) and find homes for the ones that will lead useful lives. If they make money it becomes a valuable service to horses and humans both.

    I'm still not getting the difference between poisoning a horse (humane euthanization is a euphemism.) and a bullet. Dead is dead. Taking out the cripples and crazies must be done one way or another, and both should be evaluated carefully. I've seen horses suffer on the way to the vet's for the pink juice, and I've seen the juice take forever to work. Ugly.

    Am I the only horse owner who has seen a crazy or cripple savage another horse? I lost a kind wonderful horse because a stupid woman put her rescue POS in a pasture with my horse, and the useless horse kicked mine in the knee and broke it's leg. Not a pretty sight. I know of a young girl who got bit in the face by a rescue horse. I know a kindly couple who got honked with two rescue horses that scared them out of the horse industry for life. That's right, I said industry. No industry, no horses at all.

    Make it kind, and don't lie to the horses.

  28. Ok, I have one very important question. Well, maybe two.

    If Rebel is just advertising Chuck's horses on the property, are those interested in buying the horses contacting Chuck directly to pay him or do they have to go thru Rebel?

    If they deal with Chuck (payment) directly, then truly they are just providing a service to Chuck and the horses are benefitting by being bought by individuals rather than being shipped to slaughter.

    If the buyers have to give the money to Rebel, then that opens up a whole new can and we are dealing with a group that takes the money and pays Chuck themselves for the horse.

    If that question can be answered honestly, then it will clarify whether rebel is truly providing a service or if they have their fingers in the till.

    Sorry for being so reluctant to just take what rebel says at face value. I also don't take what Fugs says at face value either because she does have a reputation for stretching the truth for drama sake; at least that's what I believe she does.

  29. From what I have heard they are strictly middlemen. I see no problem with either scenario though.

    The Realtor that sells my house is going to get a percentage, and most horse owners that I know give someone who finds a buyer 10% of the purchase price as a commission.

    Rebel is providing a listing and advertising service and using their connections to find owners for horses that would otherwise go directly to slaughter. If they can save horses and make some change doing it... more power to them.

    Most of the advertisements that I see for rescues include boarding and training fees, even though the horse is at their own facility. The vets charge. The farriers charge. Where is the righteous indignation toward them? A director of a non-profit usually gets paid.

    It all takes time, and time is worth money. It's not like I'll get free groceries because I am a volunteer. Does Fubb do paralegal work for free? I don't think she does, even though there is a vast need for poor people to find some sort of representation.

  30. Kestrel~
    Does Fubb do paralegal work for free?


    No but she will offer a reduced rate and tell you not to mention anything because that would be practicing law without a lisence...

    But then there may be a number of paralegals doing exactly that. At least that's my guess anyways.

  31. Lucerne said...

    "If the buyers have to give the money to Rebel, then that opens up a whole new can and we are dealing with a group that takes the money and pays Chuck themselves for the horse.

    If that question can be answered honestly, then it will clarify whether rebel is truly providing a service or if they have their fingers in the till."


    I honestly don't see what difference this would make.
    If Chuck legally owns the horses but lets Rebels act as his "agent" and pick/choose, evaluate, advertise and show selected horses to prospective buyers then what would be the problem with them accepting payment. And if they then take an agreed upon cut and give the rest to Chuck, so what? Why would that constitute wrongdoing or "having their finger in the till"? IMO, wrongdoing would be things like knowingly misrepresenting a horse, switching horses, etc. etc.. Providing a service can be a business. It saves Chuck the bother of evaluating horses, advertising and showing to prospective buyers and he gets a better price than if he shipped them. Rebels makes it clear that they are not a "rescue", they are a listing service. And I don't see anything wrong with anyone making something on it, being they are a business. IMHO, in this economy, this is what the horse industry could use more of - profitable bussiness. And if good, servicable horses get a second chance at life, then thats all the better. This seems like a win-win to me. I don't imagine they'll get Bill Gates filthy rich on it but if they can turn a profit, good for them.
    Now, I do want to make it clear that I do not know CBER/Rebels or anyone associated with either. I only know them from here and Fugs various blogs/slams on them. So, I DO NOT know anything about Chucks/Rebels dealings and whether or not Rebels gets any kind of payment/cut from the sale of Chucks horses. Since neither is a non-profit (so don't need to make their financials public), I figure that is their business. So I just really don't see why it would make any difference, for the horses or anyone else. But I am certainly open and interested to know why you (or others) might feel that it would or should.
    OTOH, I have more of a problem, or I should say, very mixed feelings, regarding "rescue" and a problem with the use and perception of the term "non-profit". Rescues can garner donations and use them to build, upgrade and outfit their own personal properties and pay themselves salaries etc.. Get donors, volunteers and fosters to foot the bills, do the care and then sell the animal. I'm not saying that they're getting filthy rich either nor am I saying that it can't be done ethically or correctl , just alot of grey area there, hence the mixed feelings. And when it comes right down to it, whats the difference between the for profit and the non-profit. To me, the for profit business is more transparent. I know what their motive/agenda is and can proceed as I see fit (ie. buyer beware).
    I think that Cathy is ttremendously hypocritical in many of her postings and especially in her views on rescue.
    Not looking to slam you or give you a hard time, Lucerne, nor anyone else. Just don't see why it would make any difference.

  32. There is a huge difference between putting a horse to sleep I.E owner has to, in most cases, witness the act happening. The horse dies in the upper 90% cases instantaneously. Sure, there are the cases where it takes them a bit. It might be "poisoning', but it's still humane.

    Slaughter. The sale, the strangers, the crowded cramped trucks, more strangers possibly with cattle prods whipping them off the trucks into crowded pens. The kill shoot, the smell of blood, the captive bolt gun that doesn't get them on the first shot if they happen to toss their head, the panic, the fear, the confusion and the instincts screaming to run and get away from the danger. Because it is danger and as animals of prey, they know that. That is not only inhumane, it's cruel.

    I'd much rather put a bullet in my horses brain or be there while they are euthed any day before I punish them with slaughter.

  33. Lucerne,
    That's a good question. All non-profits make money and rescues make money by selling horses. With rescues they always take a percentage and the FLO takes a percentage of the sale price. It is also legal for a non-profit to turn a profit as the only requirement is for income to nullify expenses so there is a zero balance by the end of fiscal. Any end of year profit can be deferred to the next fiscal so it is possible for and np to continuously turn a profit.

    Secondly, all up and running rescues pay at least one administrator. They also pay for board, structures, fencing etc. usually on the administrator property so there are side benefits. In addition, staff training and expenses such as gas for commute can be expensed.

    If REBEL is in fact operating as a business, I'm not saying it is but hypothesizing, and can cover their expenses then they are in a better position to do more good for horses than an unstable, over-worked rescue. To me, the later would make more sense as an organizational structure as it is more stable and capable of being more effective while not burning out the volunteers.

  34. Snowponies,
    Glad you could drop by. I think that many misunderstand the role of profit organizations in the rescue of horses. They do as much "good work" as rescues and equally give horses training for a better future. IMHO, more "rescue work" is done by for-profits than non-profits.

  35. Fugs had a temper tantrum?

    Say it isn't so!

    Funny thing about FHOTD is that it has run it's course but gor dome reason it will never go away. Sorry ya'll I just have nothing more to say about FHOTD, that blog just eats my brain.

    Way too much negative energy flows from there.

  36. Anon said...
    "...The kill shoot, the smell of blood, the captive bolt gun that doesn't get them on the first shot if they happen to toss their head, the panic, the fear, the confusion and the instincts screaming to run and get away from the danger. Because it is danger and as animals of prey, they know that...."

    Yea, this is probably not as likely a scenario as you would like to believe Anon.

    For one thing, horses are not nearly as paniced by the smell of blood as everyone likes to think. That's pretty much a myth out of the written for children storybooks.

    How do I know? Because every year we hold a calf branding, as do many, many, many of our neighbors. The horses are subjected to milling cattle, bawling cows and calves, smoke, the smell of burning hair and the smell of blood coming from notched ears and or testicles being cut off.

    Surprisingly, even the young, inexperienced horses handle it all pretty darn well. Now, if that is not a situation that would panic a horse and cause all of those notorious 'prey' animal instincts to come out...not much else is going to.

  37. That depends on the horse, bec. If you're useing cattle horses, it's pretty well bred into them.

  38. Most horses that are euthed by a vet are hauled in, since most farms are not equipped to handle carcasses. Sick horses, strange horses, other owners milling,... Many owners cannot handle the actual deed so the horse is left in a pen until someone gets around to doing the needle. There is the vet and an assistant, and the assistant's job is to flip the horse onto it's side as it goes down. The horse is paralyzed, but that does not mean that it doesn't feel anything. I know personally.

  39. That depends a lot on your area. Where I live, euthing is mostly done on-site, with pickup by a disposal service later that day or the next.

  40. That depends on where you are. The barns I've been to in my area, euthing is done on-site and a man comes later that day or the next to pick up the body and dispose of it.

  41. Vets come here to put your horses down, and you can either bury them with a backhoe service, or have them hauled the next day.

  42. Snowponies, you said:

    "Since neither is a non-profit (so don't need to make their financials public), I figure that is their business. So I just really don't see why it would make any difference, for the horses or anyone else. But I am certainly open and interested to know why you (or others
    might feel that it would or should."

    I wouldn't say they are providing a service if they are getting paid to do so. If there is money in it for them, how do the people know they aren't tacking on quite an increase in the price of the horse?

    If they are not taking donations, then yes, I agree with you. They don't have to answer to anyone about how much they are getting or how much Chuck is getting.

    I'm just cynical enough to know that people are in this business to make money and the horse is just the commodity they use to do it.

    Does the horse get a home as opposed to going to slaughter? Of course, and that is important.

    I just don't buy into the cry "Chuck has cut them off of helping TBs", especially after I posted that very exact same senario earlier then they posted in the other thread. Their declaration was just too coincidental, that's all.

    I guess I'm just leary of everyone who trades horses for personal gain.

  43. Sorry Anon, smoke, fire, bawling calves and cows, people milling everywhere, there is no breeding in the world that makes up for how a horse handles that.

    People in varying areas are not just using strictly 'cowbred' horses either. There is a ranch in Nebraska that raises and uses exclusively Arabians. I've been on ranches in Montana that raised TB's for the track and if they did not work out there or after they were done racing were brought back to be used on the ranch.

    People have gone too far with their assumption that just because horses are 'prey' animals that everything causes them to react hysterically to anything and everything. If that was the case people would not be able to train horses for their use. Do people really stop and think about that when they continue to banter around about a horse's prey animal instincts? If those instincts could not be overridden, how is it possible for people to take Mustangs that have run wild without ANY human interaction for years and train them to be ridden?

    You cannot on one hand rave about how intelligent horses are and then on the other make them out to be stupid, mindless freakazoids about any new or stressful situation.

    Oh and just think about the commotions on a racetrack that those horses have become used to?

  44. If a not for profit doesn't turn a profit, they end up bankrupt and out of business. When you read that 100% of all profits go to charity that doesn't mean that !00% of the $3.50 you spent on salad dressing goes to charity. Maybe $0.10 does. Not only do you have to pay for the raw materials and the people involved in the manufacture but the accountants, sales reps, CEO etc.
    A not for profit still has to have a product or a service that someone wants. If no one wants the product or service, no one uses it. A not for profit that no one uses doesn't do much good.

  45. Bec, you want to be pro slaughter, that is your choice, but you have to realize that not everyone feels the same as you do. You're pro slaughter, that's fine. There's nothing you could do or say in the world to change my mind. And I know the same goes on my end, too. But I have just as much right to be against it as you have to be for it, and if I feel it's cruel and inhumane, then that is how I feel.

  46. I'm with BEC, but instead of cow ponies I come from a TB hunter background. I haven't hunted in a while, but it is a blood sport. The object of the hunt isn't to race across field hopping fences; it's to kill a fox. The fox doesn't die quietly, it goes down fighting. After the fox is dead, the huntsman cuts off the mask, the brush and the four pads and awards them to the best hunters in the field that day. Everyone in on the kill gets blooded. The hounds get to tear apart what is left of the carcass. Lot's of gore in a fox hunt.

  47. There's a difference between gross and net. When you see "all profits to charity", you should read it as "all net profits to charity". $3.50 for salad dressing is the gross, $0.10 is the net after everyone in the supply/production/delivery chain has been paid.

    I expect a non-profit to plow anything beyond costs into a rainy-day fund, or share them with other rescues. A for-profit business can do whatever it wants.

  48. >I have a question ... RACE Equine got Fritz for $575. and are now begging to support him. What kind of Rescue saves a horse when they cant afford it?
    Damn now I am forced to go find Fubby's guideline for how much you need to have in savings to own a horse.<

    Almost every rescue saves horses they cannot afford to care for Justsayingfubbs. That is the name of the game.
    In any other world it would be deemed gross negligence at best. But in rescue taking a horse that someone else was unable to care for, that the rescuer does not have the funds to care for, THAT somehow makes a hero!
    And isn;t it fugs who always says, if you don't have the money in the bank to care for a horse you should not have one?

    BECs I have cowbred horses. And not cowbred horses. Ever notice how the suckers are just fascinated when one of their comprades is getting gelded or hot shod? Saddlebreds and Arabs will line up to see the action. No offense to the anon. The smell of a bear will fire them up to a one. So will the smell of grain. But I have never seen one lose their mind over the smell of blood.
    The horses that they love to show on the anti-slaughter videos are generally, the half-crazed to begin with, untrained freaks that are fighting any type of direction being imposed upon them whatsoever. Huh..really makes you wonder how they ended up in the slaughter line doesn't it?

  49. Thanks Darcy Jane for the better explanation. I think that all not for profits are required to plow all their net profits back into the running of the organization. I thought that was what made them not for profits.

  50. Great post, BHM.

    Oh, dang, there's that label again. Lovely reasonable discussion going on, and then bam. BEC is pro-slaughter, for saying horses can handle more than you think. How cruel.

    I think everyone, EVERYone here, would like to mandate a death for horses and ALL animals that is the most humane possible.

    Oddly enough, that makes the label pro-slaughter come up.
    Okay, inevitably, not oddly:(

    Last I looked, the dollar sign was still the biggest factor in the economy.
    Cheapest, quickest.


    I agree, JR. I have enough to hurt my head, thankyouverymuch.
    Horse in neighbour's garage, dog torture case in Brampton.

    Animal Shelter Organization workers getting death threats.

    Kind people better start getting their shit together.

  51. BEC is pro-slaughter, for saying horses can handle more than you think. How cruel.

    That's my right to think it's cruel, so I'm wrong on how I feel?

  52. Anon, the best homes I have found for horses involved gain. Just one instance... A man I know had a lovely horse that he loved, but severe health problems forced him to sell. He was going to sell the horse cheap. I had a buyer with money, who had a young daughter who needed that incredible horse. I encouraged him to up the price. He got money for his medication, someone who could well afford it got a horse that they treasure dearly. Now what the hell is the problem with that!? I didn't take a commission, but that is my right as a business person.

    You take this Fritz horse. Someone picked him up and resold him to a supposed 'rescue' that is dang well going to PROFIT. They can tell their sad tale and collect donations. The one eared horse, the lame horse, the nut case, those horses make money for non-profit organizations or they would not be in business. They would run out of money.

    I take offense when a reasonable person like BEC, who just provided some valuable information about the mindset of horses, is written off because you don't want to hear what is actually being said.

    I'm actually the culprit here, telling the truth about poisoning horses. Most rescue minded people seem to think that euthing a horse is somehow on the moral high ground, EVEN IF the horse MIGHT HAVE had a CHANCE at a long happy life!!!!! What kind of arrogance is that? Gah. Blood pressure soaring...

  53. This place isn't far different from fug's. You're pro slaughter there, you get reemed. You're anti slaughter here, you get reemed. Same difference on both boards.

  54. I have no problems with a successful non-profit that has salaried staff. I worked for a not-for-profit that thought that True Belief was the only thing necessary to run the business. It was a massive fail because there were no people in positions of authority to actually wrangle people (both staff and volunteers) in any one direction.

    Yes, there are a lot of assholes and crackpots out there who use a "rescue" as a way to line their own pockets and enrich their own lives. But, there are a lot of assholes everywhere.

  55. In so far I haven't seen any encouragement to do a human flesh search engine on BEC or yourself for that matter. No profanity, no descriptions of how people should be tortured, no wishing ill will on folks children...
    We are here discussing something, we don't have to agree with you or be persuaded by your arguments. I'd like your arguments to be based in logic rather than emotion. I like arguments to make economic sense. That is what I'm persuaded by. Horse slaughter can be cruel. It doesn't have to be. Do you have a better, more economical, solution to the currently available horses going to slaughter? I don't want an OTTB or an OTQH. I have my hands full with one former show horse. Who is 100% sound, just didn't like the chaos of the show ring.

  56. "Bec, you want to be pro slaughter, that is your choice, but you have to realize that not everyone feels the same as you do. You're pro slaughter, that's fine."

    Anon...You ASS-u-me a lot. I am not PRO-slaughter. I do not send my horses to kill. Not a single horse in my ownership has EVER gone to kill. I have bought a lot of horses out of 'loose' pens, which are horses usually destined for slaughter. I have never dumped a horse there. One time in my life, I traded a nasty piece of work that I picked up out of a loose pen to a trader for a different horse(read...I AM NOT A RESCUE). He hauled the horse to a sale, which I knew he would do and lo and behold...because I am in the habit of picking out some pretty darn nice pieces of horse-flesh, the horse ended up being bought for a pack horse. I hope he made it in that line of work. He sure was a looker.

    Considering that was one horse out of dozens...I can live with that percentage.

    "That's my right to think it's cruel, so I'm wrong on how I feel?"

    Actually YES, you are wrong in how you feel. Not that you are wrong for not wanting to eat horsemeat or to not have horses suffer through inhumane slaughter practices or suffer through inhumane and incorrect transportation of those horses to slaughter plants...

    But you are wrong to feel someone else is cruel because they obviously understand horse psychology better than you. Look around this room...there is a whole lot of people here who understand horses much better than you.

    Dena-...and Mountain Lions!! (shivers up spine)

  57. I don't think anyone is getting reamed for being anti slaughter . the issue seems to be that you are making assumptions about what other people say to be pro slaughter . All I got was that BEC's said horses are not as bothered by the smell of blood as we are lead to believe . And frankly I agree with her . You would be surprised at what doesn't scare your horse. Smoke from branding , blood , huge noises ,etc . The damage done by all the rhetoric spewed by the likes of PETA and other organizations has largely hindered the cause , romanticizing , animals and creating illusions that they somehow know better than us bumpkin/rednecks about horse care , handling. You will find very few people that believe slaughter to be a viable option that do not also belive it be done in a humane fashion

  58. Okay anon, I'm calmer now.
    It truly is your right to think that slaughter is cruel, just as it is my right to think randomly euthing healthy excess horses is just as cruel.
    The point I'm trying to make is that logic is a whole lot better for horses than feelings are. Horses really don't care how we feel. They want food, care, and companionship. They would prefer that the companionship be with their own kind, but we'll do in a pinch. I adore my horses, so I do my best to meet their needs, but I see misplaced sentiment doing great harm. Sane trained horses will be ambassadors for their species. Emotional rhetoric is the last thing a horse can identify with.

  59. I going to change the subject and ask your all opinion on a conversation I had today over dinner. I had dinner with a Quarter Horse buff. We got to talking about HYPP. When I said that I had been told it was dangerous to ride a HYPP horse, he laughed. Evidently you (or at least he) didn't think you are EVER suppose to ride a HYPP horse. They are halter horses ONLY. He would no more ride one of his halter horses then I would ride my St. Bernard. I don't know much about HYPP other than what I read on FHotD. Saddlebreds have swaybacks not HYPP. What do you all think about having a HYPP horse so long as it was never ridden?

  60. It's pretty creepy to see them have fits...a friend of mine had one that went through a fence during the night. Creepy yuck! Some of them die in the pasture, I think that's how they discovered it. Healthy young horses were keeling over!

    I would never breed one that was positive. There actually was a strain of pigs that carried a similar gene and the pig farmers bred the mutation out. Interesting!

  61. Lucerne, thank you for your response. You bring up some interesting points.

    Lucerne said...
    "I wouldn't say they are providing a service if they are getting paid to do so."

    To my knowledge, I don't believe that they said that they are providing a FREE service. I haven't looked at their website, but I didn't see anything in any of the posts here that specified that they were doing it for free, or not, for that matter. When I shoe or trim a horse for someone, I am providing a service and I don't do it for free. When I call a plumber to unplug my toilet, he is providing a service and I pay him to do it.

    Lucerne said...
    "If there is money in it for them, how do the people know they aren't tacking on quite an increase in the price of the horse?"

    They don't. And it really doesn't matter. All that does matter is if they are willing to pay that price - or, if not, if both parties are willing to negotiate further to come to a price that is agreeable to both of them. It all depends on how much value they place on the horse and how badly they want it.

    Lucerne said...
    "I'm just cynical enough to know that people are in this business to make money and the horse is just the commodity they use to do it."

    Now I find this a very interesting statement. The main goal of any business is to make money, whether it be to feed your family,put your kid through college or to fund your research to develop (and market)a cure for cancer (and make more money). And yes, horses are a commodity. It's what drives the rest of the industry. Breeders, trainers, feed mills and dealers, vets, farriers, boarding stables and on and on. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you. Is it that you feel that "helping horses" should not involve any monetary gain? A valid point, but a purely personal choice as far as I am concerned. As Kestrel said earlier, "If they can save horses and make some change doing it... more power to them." I don't believe that people necessarily have to be martyrs to accomplish good things.

    Lucerne said...
    "I just don't buy into the cry "Chuck has cut them off of helping TBs", especially after I posted that very exact same senario earlier then they posted in the other thread. Their declaration was just too coincidental, that's all."

    I tend to agree with you on this, but cannot say for sure as I have no firsthand knowledge or evidence either way. Guess it would depend on Chuck's personality. Some people threaten and that's the extent of it. Some people follow through, even if it means cutting off their nose to spite their face. Being this is a local (to Flubbs)outfit and feud, who knows?

    Lucerne said...
    "I guess I'm just leary of everyone who trades horses for personal gain."

    I'm guessing that you're probably not alone in this - hence the negative connotation of the term "horsetrader" throughout much of history. However, why shouldn't horses be traded for personal gain? Both parties are recieving some form of personal gain. And provided both parties are reasonably straightforward and knowledable about the horse(s) in question then it should be an equitable trade. How much the dealer originally paid for the horse or what he has put into it is irrelevant. It is the value of the animal that matters, which is based on a multitude of things.
    I'm guessing that you've had a bad experience with a horsetrader. That's too bad. There are decent horedealers out there. And they're in it for personal gain too.

  62. Hi BHM
    I really enjoy this blog. Have been reading it fairly regularly since you started it. Great topics (and pics!) and especially enjoy the intelligence and civility of those who post comments. Nothing wrong with debate and disagreeing with one another, just glad that it doesn't seem to dissolve into the hate bashing that is so common on FHotD.
    Speaking of Flubbs, while reading RACE's FB page the other day, I noticed that they say that they expect to have Fritz available for adoption by the beginning of next month. (This was posted as a comment on one of Fritz's pictures, not on their "feed".) Said that once he is out of quarantine,they will do some ground work with him and then hopefully a couple of trail rides and then he will be able to be adopted.
    So, apparently rescues don't have to follow the same criteria (as laid out by Cathy) as owners are expected to do. Apparently, (when it's at a rescue) a horse straight off the track doesn't need 3 mos. of layup to "come down" off the racing mindset and all the drugs and feed and supplements etc.. All it takes is just a couple weeks of quarantine, then do some groundwork for a week or so and then head right out on a "couple" trailrides and then they are all ready to go to their "forever home". No need for all that pesky, expensive retraining for a new career. That's just for owners I guess.

    So they're hoping to only have him around for a month. Yet everyone was jumping all over his owner for not giving at least a $2k donation. No wonder Ms. Wigle believes it is an internet scam. It is!!

  63. Way to act like fugly there, bec. Assume is what I assume you meant to spell.

  64. Sigh. Sensitive Anon, BEC was making a JOKE.
    Ass of You and Me??
    Never mind.

    If you think my comment was "reaming", you gotta get out more. I was labeled a crack-head for disagreeing with/questioning good old fugs.

    Jumping on labels for kind people gets us nowhere.
    I would love to see the end of big-production slaughter. It can be disgusting.
    You obviously feel for those animals. I do, too.

    ALL of them. Not just horses.
    Does that make me cruel?

    BEC has never sent a horse to slaughter. Why does that make her pro-slaughter?
    And why is that labeling so important to you?

  65. Sensitive ANON, the only time I have seen tempers really flair on this blog is when something written was misunderstood. Then 99% of the time it is worked out between the parties without name calling and fighting. While blogging is wonderful for free speech, the downside is you really don't know the blogger of the words you are reading so you can't associate their tone and facial expressions with the words. Please don't feel attacked and please feel free to continue to join in the discussion - many different perspectives is what makes this interesting.

  66. To the anon who made reference to pro vs. anti slaughter issues.
    You are absolutely entitled to your opinions and feelings about slaughter. But your beliefs are the one thing that should be based on facts.
    I know it wasn't my intent to make you feel attacked. And I definitely fall into the pro sector.

    I just weary of all the misinformation that has formed the foundation of the beliefs that so many hold.
    In my opinion horse slaughter sucks! It would not be my first choice. Unfortunately, there are two factors that make it in my mind necessary. 1. There are not enough viable homes. And rescue does not have the money to finance all of the equines that need a viable home. 2. Breeding for quality animals will always, and I do mean ALWAYS produce some unviable specimens.

    No sarcasm here but have you ever seen a horse paddle itself to death? Due to head injury or starvation? It is one of the most grotesque things I have ever seen. And the vet is not getting a vein once that has begun.
    Euthanasia? In very real terms the animal is paralyzed through use of chemical and suffocates to death. Period. Now some vets do give them one hell of a cocktail that allows them to be pretty damn out of it while this happens but they are still conscious.

    And with euthanasia I think the renderer needs to be on site before that vein is broached. Because otherwise you now have bio-hazardous and poisonous waste on your property.

    Death in and of itself is often cruel anon. And I have no problem with you having your opinions on the subject.

    BECs did you see the pictures of that riding mule that took out the mountain lion?
    Grabbed him by the tail and slapped his head on the ground with every pass?
    OMG! Girl it was insane! Wanna buy a herd guardian mule extraordinaire? Special one day only price to you. Otherwise, he is going on the truck!LOL

  67. Snowponies, thanks for your response. I understand your reasoning and agree with it.

    What I was trying to convey (poorly) when I said they were using the horse as a commodity to make money is that, in my mind, they are not so concerned with helping the horses find homes as they seem to have used an opportunity to make money off these horses and took advantage of it. In my mind, that's hardly altruistic and oh so kind as opposed to the person who goes ahead and pays whatever price they ask because he/she really does feel sorry for that horse and cares about rehabbing and giving that horse a new life. Does that make sense to you?

    While rescuers have a tendency to go off the deep end, use unscrupulous methods to get people to send them money (grossly exaggerated stories that grab the heart), etc, their hearts are still in the right place as opposed to just seizing an opportunity to make some quick cash out of selling horses to the kind hearts.

    I also agree that a rescuer should never take in a horse, get other people to pay for that horse and then scream and cry they have no money for that horse's ongoing care. That's just a stupid thing to do and, more often than not, the horse ends up in just as bad shape as when he/she was rescued in the first place. With many rescuers being hoarders in disguise, it makes the problem for the horse even greater.

    There is no easy answer except to be sure one has the money to take care of the horse if they decide to get one. Rescuers need to know their limits and be willing to euthanize by whatever method they choose (not slaughter) in order to be successful and truly help whatever number of horses they do have in their care.

    We've all seen too much of what stockpiling can do. We've all seen too much of barrels of money being spent on a poor horse who really needed to be put down, not go through surgeries and other sundry things because the rescuer didn't have the guts to put the horse out of his/her misery and decided to take the begging route to get others to foot the bills.

    I am against slaughter but have no problem with using a bullet or paying a vet to euth the horse. I've had to pay to euth a few and the vet gave the horse a serious dose of a tranquilizer first, the horse collapsed and was out cold (but the heart was still beating) and then the vet administered the kill juice. Within a very short time the horse was dead with no writhing, no pain, no thrashing whatsoever. I don't know what causes some horses to thrash all over the place when euthed so I can't address that.

    Thanks for your answer to my explanation. I understand what you are saying.

  68. Lucerne, I agree with much of what you are saying, however I have seen way too many rescues that do not fit your criteria...

    >their hearts are still in the right place as opposed to just seizing an opportunity to make some quick cash out of selling horses to the kind hearts.<

    Just one example would be Fritz! I'm sure they are not going to flip him for the $575.00 that they paid for him. Between the 'adoption' fee and the donations they are begging, their profit is much higher than a horsetrader would have received. If RACE really cared about horses instead of the quick money, they would have continued to work with Chuck. Chuck is the one who pays for the gas to collect the horses into a place where they can be sorted.

    Rescues will sell a crippled or crazy horse to the 'kind hearts' without a second's remorse. A good Trader provides people with suitable horses, (which pretty much guarantees them a good home) or he/she quickly loses credibility and reputation. Rescues work off sentiment, so they are not held to any professional standard.

    All horses should exit this world without pain or fear, but once they are gone I see no reason to not use their carcass. After all, I've signed my organ donor card!

    Practical people know how many horses they can afford, and understand that it's in their own best interests to provide good care for their horses.

    Sentimental people become hoarders.

  69. Anti-slaughter Anon,
    I'm anti-slaughter as well so feel free to say what you want without judgement. Please don't feel offended or criticized. I think BEC was only questioning whether horses are afraid of blood and not attacking you. I would like to see behavioural studies on this one, but until then we'll have to rely on personal observation. SB comment that she's seen many horses not bothered by blood. Personal, I find it an interesting behavioural topic.

  70. Hi Kestrel

    when I said, "their hearts are still in the right place as opposed to just seizing an opportunity to make some quick cash out of selling horses to the kind hearts", I was NOT referring to Fugs and her ilk as I believe they had an ulterior motive when they acquired Fritz and we all know what that was. They are not included. What I am thinking about are the people who get the horse because they feel sorry for him/her and want to make a better life for the horse. Maybe Fugs and her rescue friends want to make a better life for Fritz but they ALSO want to smash and grind anyone who had anything to do with him before he ended up where he did.

    You said,

    "Just one example would be Fritz! I'm sure they are not going to flip him for the $575.00 that they paid for him. Between the 'adoption' fee and the donations they are begging, their profit is much higher than a horsetrader would have received"

    On this we both agree.

    You said,

    "Rescues will sell a crippled or crazy horse to the 'kind hearts' without a second's remorse."

    I agree with this also but I also want to be fair and say that not every rescue has this mindset.

    You said,

    " good Trader provides people with suitable horses, (which pretty much guarantees them a good home) or he/she quickly loses credibility and reputation."

    Yes, a horse trader should use his/her conscience when selling a horse to someone. The ones I have come across, however, do not have a conscience and, in fact, lie to people just to get the horse sold. Unfortunately for me, I have run across more of this kind than the ones you describe. It's reprehensible what these people do to make that sale, with no regard for the horse or the person's safety and wellbeing. It's all about the money.

    I'm sure there are good, decent, honest horse traders out there in the world. I just haven't found any myself.

    You said,

    "Rescues work off sentiment, so they are not held to any professional standard"

    Agreed. They also use that sentiment to get people to part with their money and many times misrepresent the horse in order to get him/her off the property so they can bring in more for which they get accolades and praise and, of course, more donations. They are just as reprehensible to me.

    If I were going to purchase another horse, I would stay clear of any and all rescues because I see how most of them operate and don't like it. Would I be able to find an honest horse trader? I don't know.

    Most people who do "rescue" have proven to me that they have no common sense, no practicality. They operate solely on emotions and are quite skilled at getting others "caught up" in the save. Then they embark on a campaign to get those same people to pay for the horse's ongoing care with no intention of ever actually raising money on their own to fund their hobby and deep seated need to feel important/accepted/loved/praised.

    In all of this, more often than not, the horses become victims again and suffer for the foolishness of the self absorbed.

    Give me that person who takes in a horse, cares for him/her and keeps that horse for the rest of his/her life or does all they can to insure the horse's safety and well being should they have to find a home for the horse due to unforseeable problems they may encounter.

    To me, that's the true rescuer, not those who exploit the horses for whatever reason be it money or praise and adoration from the rescue world.

  71. Hi Lucerne, I think a lot depends on the area you're in. There are different mixes in different areas. Ranch horses usually are in great demand because they have been bred to be sensible and exposed to a lot of different stimuli.

    I was actually making reference to a (now defunct) rescue in my area, that pulled some of the most reprehensible stunts I've ever seen.

    The secret to finding a reputable Trader is to network. Visit the barns in your area, go to shows, Omoksees, talk to other horse owners, check references, etc. I don't think there is any business on the planet that doesn't have some shady characters, but often it's the person who wants a bargain who frequents the fly by night operations. A good well trained horse has value because everyone wants it.

    Ideally, every horse would find a home like you describe, and I totally agree that people like that are the true 'rescuers.'

    Performance horses are frequently traded when they age out of their sport, and usually are in great demand as trainers of children or re-riders, so that is an option when looking for a horse. One of the saddest things that I've found is that the 'rescue' mentality devalues these horses. I just want to pull my hair out when someone comes in wanting a cheap well trained kid's horse. Umm, they're worth their weight in gold, folks! Most of the time you'll only find one if there is family problems, as in the case of the friend I mentioned. They rarely go to rescues. And we should expect to pay a fair price.

  72. Anon 5:16 PM
    To even begin to say the smell of blood or death sets a horse off is incredibly ignorant on your part. Might you be drinking the flub-flavor-kook-aide a bit too much?

    I have yet to see a horse panic over the smell of blood. Even when they have cut themselves and it is their own. The ones that do are usually the same ones with bigger, human induced issues.

    Add to the other scenarios listed above ^^^ Hunters who use their horses or mules to pack other DEAD animals out of the woods, desert or swamps after the hunt. I can attest that mountain lion meat and bear tastes pretty damn good! The thought of a horse carying a predator on it's back? I must be crazy.

    Add the smell of death in there and something should be flipping out. Yet the horses and mules continue to pack it into camp and without a worry or care to be found in the string. Be it from the one packing the carcass or the others carrying the hunters and guides.

    Seems to me there would be plenty there to upset the apple cart.

    Anon <3

  73. Lucerne-I hear what you are saying about the honesty and integrity of horse traders. I grew up with horse traders. My dad was one. He was not an honest one. But for the most part, the traders I grew up with were more guilty of ommission vs. flat out lying. This younger crowd of horse traders though? I didn't trust a single one of them. I heard them tell some of the most bald-faced lies to people. One of them was notorious for buying horses at one horse sale, hauling them to another horse sale a few hundred miles away and telling people he had bought the horse 6 months or a year ago and had spent all of that time riding him on the ranch. (insert eyeroll)

    But darned if that shoe doesn't fall the other way too. I had to testify in court for my BO because he was sued for selling an innappropriate horse to a family with a handicapped child. I was there when the family came and test rode the horse. They ALL rode the mare and got along good with her. The BO was honest with them that she had not been ridden or around children before, but that she was very gentle. The family NEVER said a single word about having a handicapped child at home. They took the horse home, plopped the handicapped girl on her(I guess trying to do their own hippology), the mare freaked and the girl ended up in the hospital. They went after the BO for everything he had. It just happened to be his lucky day that I was there messing with my own horses and observed the whole transaction.

    Either situation makes transactions within the equine world difficult. I always suggest to people who are in the market to attend several sales, watch the people, not the horses. You'll get a feel for who is who. Get involved with the local horse set. Volunteer to help. Again you will get familiar with who is who and will also get to know people. When people know you, they are more inclined to steer you in the right direction and/or let you try a horse on for size.

  74. hippology....LOL....I think that is a 4-H knowledge game.

    I meant hippotherapy.

    Oh and Kaede...I would not own a HYPP n/h or h/h horse. I certainly would not try to ride a positive one or anything that had ever shown symptoms. There are certain risks a person should just not take.

    You have to realize that the vast majority of 'Halter' horses have not been bred for anything but bulk in about the last 20 years. Things like disposition, common sense, aptitude or trainablility are not high priorites in the breeding shed. Add in how many of these horses are raised-strict confinement and high grain diets and they never really learn to think like a good riding horse does, nor are their bones generally as strong. There is always going to be someone who has ridden their halter horse and gotten along with them just fine, but the majority aren't even going to bother. They know what they have created.

  75. (shivers)
    Truth is so much stranger, isn't it..

  76. As to whether horses in general have a fearful or flight response to blood, I do not know.

    I do know that I once found a broodmare who had aborted a foal three months early and subsequently bled to death in the pasture. While riding an OTTB. There was a huge pool of blood around the mare's body. She'd struggled extensively before dying.

    The whole scene was pretty upsetting to me. My horse? Didn't even flicker an ear. The other broodmares were completely calm as well.

    That horse was an OTTB, less than two months off the track. Since we didn't know any better, we had no problem with riding them as soon as they arrived unless they were lame. And heck yes, we cantered them! I wanted to get that horse to the level where I could re-sell him as a green hunter prospect and I wasn't going to be able to sell even a green hunter if he couldn't be cantered.

    I wouldn't extrapolate from a group of 10-15 horses to all horses but it would not surprise me if horses weren't anywhere near as sensitive as some descriptions paint them.

  77. Anon <3, I just have to share this one...My dad knew an old boy that had saddle broke an ELK! There is a bar in the area with a bunch of pictures of this elk, an enormous 6 point bull elk, dragging a travois with other dead elk on it! There are other pictures of ladies in fancy divided skirt riding habits happily trail riding the elk!

    I think expecting a prey animal to freak at blood would seem logical, but I have noticed in nature shows that herd animals like zebras seem to understand that the lion or other predator is only going to kill one animal, so after the kill the grazers just hang out. Almost like they know the predator is full. Interesting stuff!

    Horse lawsuits can be interesting. At a saddle club event (years ago) a woman pulled up into the posted 'no vehicle area' in her car...and honked the horn! A bunch of kids on horses were in the area waiting for their class, we were terrified. All the horses behaved admirably. One horse kicked her car, caving in the door (bad horsey, have a cookie!) and she tried to sue. Another guy went into his neighbor's pasture to pet the horses, got his foot stepped on, and you guessed it...

  78. Eeesh I don't know where to go so I'll pick hypp. Personally I think halter horses are the ugliest things in the world to look at. All those muscles and the tiny little legs and feet. I don't care at all for Impressive bred horses. I just want to say "Ah'll be bahck!" When I see the ones with the big muscley butts! Ha!


  79. Kaede- I wouldn't limit the 'Halter only' industry to just the QH breed for producing some whacked out, psycho mutant freaks. Every breed can be found guilty. Some more than others.

    As far as riding an HYPP positive (N/H or H/H) horse, its a gamble. Owning, breeding or riding an HYPP N/N horse- you're pretty safe. But who goes around asking QH owners their horses breeding, if their horse has been tested or the results of such?

    Kestrel- the rideable elk is just too funny and bizarre. I imagine a mounting block was needed. That is just crazy.

    Anon <3

    Oh and did anyone catch the flub blabbering today? How do you keep from getting burnt out on rescue? Then she lists a few things where she goes against all her own 'rules of rescue'. Yet some family has found her their new icon and are doing what she says.

    Excuse me while I toss my cookies. Everyone may want to duck!

  80. "To even begin to say the smell of blood or death sets a horse off is incredibly ignorant on your part. Might you be drinking the flub-flavor-kook-aide a bit too much? "

    Can we please be polite when addressing anti-slaughter anon. Anon is honestly asking questions and should be treated with respect.

  81. To the HYPP question: why would you even have a horse that you couldn't do anything with? I'm not talking about pasture puffs that have earned their retirement, but the notion of a horse that can do nothing but stand around in a show ring and look pretty (?) makes no sense to me. With livestock, if there is no "function", what is the point of the "form"?

  82. Thank you, bhm. I've felt more than unwelcome for my views on how I feel about slaughter and I stand by what I said earlier. I feel that if you're against slaughter here, you get reemed just like you do on fug's site if you're for slaughter there. I was landed on with both feet. bec I apologize for calling you pro-slaughter, I may have grabbed your intials instead of someone elses, I had too many things to read and relied on my memory instead of going back to address the person who was slamming me on my views. Which are wrong because of how I feel with 'nothing to back me up logically'. I don't think this place is for me, I'm not rich and I'm against slaughter, two strikes against me from most of you guys. Good luck on your mission, no matter how right you all are and how wrong anyone else is who doesn't agree with you.

  83. Wow...Anon 3:19...nice way to make a nice, rational statement...then close like a 12 year old.

    Rich? Not likely. Pro slaughter? No, but we're pragmatists. Better slaughter than horses starving in back-40's or being dumped in wilderness (yes, for real - I've heard multiple eyewitness reports of people dumping horses "in the wild" in eastern Washington).

  84. Oh, dear. Another slammed door. Your voice is very important. We agree with your right to be upset and appalled. Where is any of us more or less right, or wrong?
    Isn't the single unifying factor, we all wish the best for all animals?
    Or not.
    My head hurts.
    I have this weird habit of trying to lighten the mood when things get kinda, uh, heavy.

    I know.
    I'm still trying..

  85. Anon, I don't think any of us here said we were rich, I know I didn't say that I am...(Where did that come from, and why would it matter anyway?)

    Many posters here are against slaughter, including BHM who started the Review! Others have looked at it and regretfully think it may have it's place. We are united in our stance against cruelty to the horse in any manner. Slaughter, as advocated by those of us who believe that it doesn't have to be horrific, would have to be conducted in as humane a manner as euthanasia.

    You are correct in that the horsemen and women on this site would prefer that logic prevail, because that is in the best interests of our beloved horses. That's why it's the FHotD Review. Her blog is rampant sensationalism and delusional emotionalism at it's worst.

    At least I can guarantee that we won't hunt you down and harass your family for disagreeing!

  86. I agree with you GL, the unifying factor is that we wish the best for all animals. Nicely put.

    Word ferv: donemen (no, seriously, that was it!).

  87. Lucerne said...

    Most people who do "rescue" have proven to me that they have no common sense, no practicality. They operate solely on emotions and are quite skilled at getting others "caught up" in the save. Then they embark on a campaign to get those same people to pay for the horse's ongoing care with no intention of ever actually raising money on their own to fund their hobby and deep seated need to feel important/accepted/loved/praised.

    In all of this, more often than not, the horses become victims again and suffer for the foolishness of the self absorbed.

    Give me that person who takes in a horse, cares for him/her and keeps that horse for the rest of his/her life or does all they can to insure the horse's safety and well being should they have to find a home for the horse due to unforseeable problems they may encounter.

    To me, that's the true rescuer, not those who exploit the horses for whatever reason be it money or praise and adoration from the rescue world.

    Applause! Applause! Couldn't have said it any better myself!

    I can definately understand your concerns re: traders, rescues etc.
    I think that several here have given very sound advice regarding finding a horse/dealing with dealers. We have a dealer in this area who ( I have heard) will usually take back a horse if someone is not happy with it and let them take aanother in exchange. I have never dealt with him on horses but have on equipment and I've always felt that he has een fair, so I wouldn't be too afraid to look for a horse there if I was so inclined.

    To the overly sensitive anon:

    Nobody here said that you don't have a right to your opinion. You certainly do. I believe that ALL opinions are welcome here. That's the reason why I personally enjoy, learn and get so much more out of this blog than some others. I like reading varying viewpoints, even if I don't necessarily agree with them. For me, I guess that I would have to agree with BEC and others opinion that horses are really not terrified by by the smell of blood, death etc. and the whole prey instinct thing. I too know of many horses that have been used to pack out or drag game.
    So I guess I would be classed as pro-slaughter because I believe that it can be done humanely. Although I would not personally choose it as an option, I don't believe that I have the right to tell others that they can't. Rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, I think it can be modified and regulated acceptably. My biggist problem with slaughter is the transportation, but I feel that can be fixed also. And I promise that I won't cry or get overly pissy if you or anyone else disagrees with me ;)

  88. I don't think that ant-slaughter anon was getting pissy. I think she was feeling over whelmed and the lone voice. I don't like that feeling myself and can sympathize. I hope you come back and I think that many here will miss you. As I said earlier I'm anti-slaughter and I haven't been attacked so there is room for you if you wish to reconsider. Please, everyone, be careful as to how you phrase comments because if it's a persons first time posting then they may feel uncomfortable and the outsider.

  89. First thing I will say is that I am one of those who do not consider horses to be "livestock." In my book, they are different. As a species, horses have served a different purpose to our society (the USA) than conventional livestock has. I consider horses to be utility and or companion animals. I realize that legally/technically this isn't the case, but for me it is.

    While I dislike the idea of horses going to slaughter, I truly abhor inhumane treatment of any animal that is going to slaughter, whether they were bred and raised for it, or like horses, met with unfortunate circumstances that sent them there (this would be in the USA where horses aren't raised as a food animal.)

    I am going to have to agree that I don't think most horses are upset by the smell of blood, I have seen many examples of this myself.

    What I don't agree with is the examples given of how horses react to certain circumstances as if all horses would react the same way. I can name just as many horses who would totally lose it if faced with a cattle roundup, branding and mass gelding or having a dead animal thrown over their backs to carry.

    As a species, any horse can learn to be around just about anything and deal with it just fine, no matter how against their natural instincts it might be. This just shows what a wonderful, versatile animal they are. But that is the key word, they have learned this ability.

    Many horses that have found themselves with a one way ticket to death would not be able to deal with the process of loading into a trailer that is not built for horses, packed in like a can of sardines, and upon arrival, herded as an animal about to be slaughtered would be, without a sense of immense fear and panic. Slaughterhouses are afterall, a production line, the faster it runs, the more profitable.

    I do not think that this blog is at all like FHOTD. People here can state their opinions and yes, there might be disagreeement, but there is no lynch mob mentality here. Thanks BHM for your efforts to keep it that way and also to everyone who posts here to keep it that way.

  90. I meant to say "who posts here that keeps it that way," Oops, sawry!

    Off to feed puppies, ponies and pacas!

  91. Okay, amazing how things change while you are thoughtfully thinking out a post.

    ANON, please don't leave. Everyone here is really a good person and loves horses. Give it a chance!

    Oh, I forgot to say in my post, I believe someone said that sentimental people turn into hoarders. I must disagree, people don't come anymore sentimental than I do, but I am not and will not become a hoarder. Being a hoarder goes way beyond sentimentality, it is a mental illness. Please do not simplify.

  92. Anon one other thing to keep in mind before taking the opinions of others too seriously.
    At best, a bit unbalanced, not stable, kind of screwy, goofy, well..we just don't always think right. Might be a case of one too many to the head you know?
    And rich? Oh hon, uh uh. Despite, or in spite of, popular belief or representation, horse people are as another general rule, usually a bit challenged when it comes to the ready.
    Best wishes to you whatever you decide.

  93. to the anti slaughter anon(not a slam , just making sure I address the right person. Several people have asked you to stay on and give this blog a try bhm, is a classy lady and has encouraged you to stay and offered apologies. No one can make you stay or go , but I would suggest you give it a chance . Typed words are tougher than verbal conversations as it can all seem very abrupt and esy to "read between the lines" often responses don't come for several hours as everyone has busy lives ,with or without horses . the foundation of this blog was for reasonable comunication anda way to diffuse some of the more volatile situations on Fugly(forgive me if I over generalised bhm) Give it a chance , we are a pretty decent group

  94. That would be me...guilty as charged!;) I should not oversimplify!

    I do think there is a borderline that hoarders cross that involves a separation of logic and emotion, however. The rescue modality is over that line when they take in more animals than they can care for, or guilt people into donating more money than they can afford so rescuers can indulge themselves.

    Hoarders truly are mentally ill, and the illness is devastating for both the people and the animals. Healthy people have a balancing process going on that keeps them from taking in more animals than they can take care of, even though we are soppy sentimental about the ones we have!

  95. Thanks you all on the HYPP information. I couldn't believe that someone would breed horses never to be ridden and that HYPP was of no concern to them. I though that man just had to be pulling my leg.

    This are questions about horse meat. If a horse goes to a feed lot thin, is the purpose to fatten the horse up? That's why you put cattle on feed lots. To fatten them up before slaughter. Why slaughter a thin horse?

    Another reason that cattle are fatten on feedlots is for the taste of the meat. Grain finished meat is supposed to be tastier and more tender.

    Old dairy cows when they are slaughtered are ground up for burger, their meat is supposedly to tough and "gamy" for any other purpose.

    Would any of these factors be present in horse slaughter? The Japanese and the French are willing to pay top dollar for fine food. Why would they eat an old stringy horse? Or are the horses they are eating not the ones going to slaughter here? Are the old, thin, stringy horses being used as animal food?

    On rescues... When is a rescue a rescue? The horse I just bought was NEVER in any danger of being put on the truck. But he wasn't what the owners wanted, didn't show promise about going all the way to the top. (Just found out his daddy's stud fee was $15,000.00 ... way more than I paid for the horse.) I don't think I "rescued" him, but in FHotD world would he be considered a rescue since he didn't work out for his first owners?

    Hording is closely related to OCD. Both respond well to SSRIs.

  96. Sorry BHM if I offended anyone. Guess it came out wrong but the "overly pissy" part was a reference to the folks at flubbies.

  97. Sorry, my misunderstanding. (hangs head in shame)

  98. kaede the horse that go to Japan are select market. They go on a jet live. Usually prime drafties that bring upwards of $20,000 each on the hoof so to speak.
    Now I wonder if the Japanese know that some of these animals have come directly from the lab? Where their blood is collected and spun for vaccines. The other horses are also directed toward their prime markets after being processed no different than cattle. There are grades assigned while they are alive and after processing as well. For anyone who has never tasted horse meat it is for the most part a little leaner and a little sweeter in flavor than beef.
    That's right folks. I have eaten horseflesh. A chunky appy mare that had the misfortune to flip herself over in the barn and had to be shot due to head trauma and hemorraging. I had no idea she was going to end up on my plate. And no one informed me that she was until after I remarked that these T-Bones were sweeter.
    While I wouldn't make a practice of it I am glad for the experience. I think it has made me a touch more practical.
    Another thing that people may not be aware of is that the entire European market for horsemeat is controlled by just a couple of families. And between them and the EU anti-slaughter has given them far more control over the entire market than would be wise for a product that they do not raise oe produce. They will continue to command prices up to hundreds of dollars per pound but the folks here will continue to only see pennies on the dollar. And fugs vital error in her campaign? The very best horseflesh for consumption is produced right here in the Midwest. So her cries of bute and poisoning will never serve because people will continue to want what they want. And for the prices they are willing to pay they will continue to get it.

  99. damn I really can spell. Horses that go to Japan. And or produce not oe produce.
    Sorry for the confusion.

  100. Thanks Dena, I was wondering. I do know that the Wagyu cattle that produce Kobe beef are started over here, often in Texas or California, and finished in Japan. I figured if the Japanese were willing to spend big bucks on shipping live cows to Japan they would be willing to spend the bucks on horse meat.
    Now to go liberate some strawberries from their neglectful owners...

  101. I wasn't going to come back here and bother you guys again, but I had a thought (Be Nice:))and realized that I was clumsy in my explanation about Chuck Walkers decision to close our access to the horses. I was talking purely about the OTTB's, not TB's in general. As everyone knows, this area is rife with re-homed race horses so we will still be listing the occasional TB dumped by private individuals. And I could just envision the howling about it if I didn't at least try to clarify the situation. I apologize if I've made a nasty situation even more confusing.
    To answer the charges that I'm lying, for some unknown reason. I wish I could think of a way of proving my statement. But we all know nothing I could do would make any difference. I could ask for a letter from Mr Walker, to post, but letters can be faked. And anyone can call Mr. Walkers phone number and ask him, but he will be called a liar, no matter what he says. So, I guess,I just have to rely on your common-sense...Chuck Walker does not need us to sell his horses. He can sell them to the slaughterhouse without any hassle. I've never asked him if he is 'plumping' the prices because I, frankly don't care. If he charges more for the 'right' to list the Horses, that's fine with me. The buyers of the Horses know the prices 'up front'. If they believe the price is too high they can keep looking.But, oddly enough, just making it clear that we are not a 'Rescue' seems to be a 'selling point' for a lot of people :) I don't know why any of this should be a matter for debate. I'll say again we are a Private listing service. I've never earned a penny for the services of the Board, all the Ads are written by Volunteers and we don't sell advertising. But even if we did, even if we had somehow managed to figure out a way to all become millionaires , it still wouldn't be any business of Mz Fug-Up and her group of howlers. No one is obligated to explain themselves to Her. And, until she starts working a bit harder to get her facts straight, I don't figure anyone should bother to listen to her...But that's just my opinion...Helen

  102. Thank you Helen. And no, you really don't have to explain or justify anything to Cathy or anyone. But it's nice to get all sides of story. Honestly, I don't understand why anyone who is in the business of selling horses would be expected to sell a horse that is sound, usable etc. for meat price. Even to a rescue. IMO, "rescue" has done more to devalue horses and drive prices down than the current economic downturn has. And most rescues don't seem to have a problem putting ((MO) a pretty high price when they sell...err, "rehome".

  103. I, for one, am always the teensiest bit suspicious of the claims when a Warehouse Rescue says it doesn't add a 'reasonable mark-up' to the bail price. I only have four horses, here, to support, and those beloved boogers cost a small fortune..Hay,grain, suppliments,Vet Bills,Meds,tack, and all the bazillion tiny things they need to keep them healthy and comfortable. If the Rescue's aren't adding a mark-up, how are they managing to care for these horses while they are waiting for homes? When CBER was still active and we were being blasted for the 'high' QT fees, One of the BOD's posted a list of the services provided...Just the basic stuff, Anti-biotics, wormers, grain and such. Then I asked about fly spray, and someone else asked about salt. And before I knew it the list was almost quadrupled. This stuff costs money and sombody has to pay for it. So If the Rescues aren't adding those costs to the base price who is paying for it, and how do they keep the accounting straight?...Helen

  104. So true. I was just talking about that very same subject with a friend a while back - all the little things we forget to figure into the cost of keeping a horse

  105. As for grain fed beef... blech.

    For years, I bought my beef by the cow direct from the farm. The farmer I bought from made most of his money breeding black Angus cattle that he sold as feeders. The animals I bought were usually old cows or bull prospects who didn't work out and were turned into steers, then kept for six months to get rid of the bull meat flavour.

    The animals I bought were all grass fed.

    To my taste, grain fed beef tastes watery and washed out. It's like generic meat mush.

    Grass fed beef has a richer flavour. Not gamy; I have to wonder if people who call it gamy have ever eaten wild venison. Now *that* is gamy!

    The oldest animal I ate was 12 years old, an old cow. She was very lean and no, I wouldn't have turned her into steaks but she made *great* roasts.

    The only reason feedlot beef caught on is that it is cheaper to produce. Way cheaper than grassfed beef, even though they have to pump them full of antibiotics to sustain an artificially high rate of weight gain.

    A feedlot steer is ready to go somewhere between 12 and 18 months old; a grass fed steer needs about a year more to attain the same weight.

  106. GD. I guess it's like chickens. I believe that the reason that chicken breast is the "favorite" now days is because it is tasteless. You don't taste chicken, you taste sauce.

    Tasteless chicken is a byproduct of factory farming.

    When I visited my grandma on her farm in the summers, we had home grown, freshly killed chicken that tasted like, well, chicken.

    I always buy humanly raised and slaughtered beef. I know my steer personally and can visit him if I want. My steer is fed on grass and walks around in a 50 acre field. Just before slaughter he is fatten on corn for a few weeks.

  107. Iheart kestrel..

    "Slaughter, as advocated by those of us who believe that it doesn't have to be horrific, would have to be conducted in as humane a manner as euthanasia."

    yes. That would be my dream.

  108. I visited Chuck's lot a few days before all this came down. Chuck told me that if any trainers or ownere were harassed, he would not sell anymore thoroughbreds off the tracks. End of story. This lot has been the end for thoroughbreds in the area and beyond for years. He knows all of the trainers and owners in the area. In the past, CBER was able to save almost every thoroughbred that came his way, including a very sought after off-spring of Precisionist. One of his four babies of which only one other is known to be alive, a stallion standing in Florida. She is with Old Friends now. When she was brought to the lot by a dealer in Omak, Wa. Chuck was told she was a nice riding mare and had been used on a ranch, but he had no idea of who she was nor did CBER until after she was saved by the group and rehomed to a young woman. Somehow, this poor mare had made her way from the breeding shed in Florida to Washington. There are several other well-known horses who have also come off the lot. There are also untold success stories, including one horse who is now one of the best polo ponies in the country. Rebels is but a listing service and no monies exchanges hands. All monies go directly to Chuck. I might also add that there were maybe 15 young horses all stamped and waiting for the ride to Florence Packing. I could not look at them. The radicals and that includes Fugly have in their continued efforts doomed more horses then I care to mention. They are fools.