Sunday, May 16, 2010

In Agreement

A beautiful appy for Fern
The question for today is: What points do you agree with FHOTD on?

246 comments:

  1. That the excess mustangs, the 30 something thousand that are currently being warehoused, be euthanized. I actually believe that they should be humanely slaughtered and the meat utilized. A) because I don't believe that mass graves of chemically euthed carcasses is responsible (a bullet would be ok)and B) I think it would be a tremendous waste. But bottom line is I agree with her that we not just continue on the waywe are.
    Excellent topic BHM

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  2. Good question - I would say I tend to agree with her in a general sense:
    1) Breeding should be limited and carefully considered.
    2) When you sell a horse, be careful who you sell it to.
    3) Know how much keeping a horse costs, be sure you can afford that plus have some sort of emergency fund.
    4) A horse needs a job.
    5) Old horse does not necessarily mean skinny horse.

    Where I differ with her is in the particulars. For example:
    1a) Carefully consider breeding, but that doesn't mean breed only horses that have proven themselves in the show ring. How about breeding that amazingly sound and sane mare that has been gently training up green riders for 10 years?
    2a) I don't think it's reasonable to hold the original owner (or breeder) of a horse responsible for its lifetime welfare.
    3a) Know how much it costs and be sure you can afford it plus a little bit; but I wouldn't hold everyone to the bar of having a six month "emergency" fund, plus a euth/disposal fund, plus... before I'd let them own a horse.
    4a) But not every horse can have a job. I've seen too many horses go by on her blog whose only job seems to be publicity for FHOTD.
    5a) But sometimes old and skinny do go together. Just because an old horse is a bit ribby doesn't mean it's being neglected. Just like people, horses come in all shapes and sizes.

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  3. What they said, *pointing upward* We all seem to agree that horses should be treated well. It's those pesky details...

    Also, I believe that truly abusive people do need to be held accountable. Oh wait, that's why we have laws and trials and judges and stuff like that.

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  4. NotAFollower said...

    Good question - I would say I tend to agree with her in a general sense:
    1) Breeding should be limited and carefully considered.
    2) When you sell a horse, be careful who you sell it to.
    3) Know how much keeping a horse costs, be sure you can afford that plus have some sort of emergency fund.
    4) A horse needs a job.
    5) Old horse does not necessarily mean skinny horse.

    Id like to agree except that Fubby never does what she says.
    Herc and her band of broodmares dont have a job
    She rescues for everyone else to support.

    And her blah blah about having 6 mo of funds when has she ever had a pot to piss in?

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  5. For the mustangs, I don't see why they don't do what they do for the stray cat populations. Not that I'm bringing that topic up, it's a debate in it's own, but what I'm saying I'd like to see done with them is catch, geld and turn out. Do it in the cooler months, and let them go. They'll do all the walking they need to do for the swelling and surgery.

    My two cents. I'd love to have a mustang, they're stocky without the height and that helps me with my ah... well paddedness.

    ~DK Fluffy

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  6. Actually that's been suggested, but the mustang rescue people are worried that it would upset their speshul social order...uhuh. I can't be makeing this kind of thing up. I'm just not that creative. Of course the "Cloud" herd is not bothered by all the photographers...but they're wild, not habituated...uhuh. I'm sure all the old timers who used to keep an eye on the herd, turn out some good breeding stock now and again, and keep the numbers at a sustainable level would be simply amazed to learn that the horses are (are ya ready?!) native to the Americas. NOT feral dang it...!!!!!

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  7. I do love a good mustang though. Nature has weeded out the bad feet...

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  8. Fugles likes to think her message is controversial and that's what causes all the hoopla. I agree wit responsible breeding, nutrition, cost of horses (etc)
    But there's not like these things haven't been written about by a thousand other (more) knowledgeable horse people

    Controversy is Dr. Deb Bennet's books on conformation. They go against current standards and I think they need to be discussed.

    Ultimately the good points and the potential to reach people, get lost amidst the radical message and the drama. The average person is going to disassociate themselves from it. Yeah you'll get a hundred radicals, and that's it.

    What exactly has she accomplished? Maybe a few animal abusers got stiffer sentences, and maybe a few horses have been saved short term. I but I still believe all this crazy is more harmful than good.

    Look at this rescue: http://www.horsehavenoftn.com/

    They're working with authorities patiently to change laws- they don't throw fits when things don't go fast enough or alienate the people they need. In a state where change has always been slow, they've made a difference by showing authorities that working with them is a good thing. They stepped in when the state lost its horse counsel and are often called by animal control for help. They offer training to animal control officials so they can recognize neglect, they put together and help train rescue workers for large animal rescue. Yeah, compared to other rescues they don't take in a lot of horses, but their making a huge impact. I asked Fugles once how her "rescues" hold up.

    I bet there aren't twenty rescues like that one in the entire nation and yet they're making the impact. Silently, unobserved, they're chaning things. Then people like fugles like to take credit, as if screaming "I want things to change faster" between commercials actually ever works. You have to get off the couch first, then walk a few steps toward the door, maybe put on a coat and some shoes, grab your car keys, lock up the house... all these things before you can drive the car.

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  9. uenduphere, trust me. No matter how good a rescue looks on the surface, dig a bit and you'll find drama.

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  10. So how many disorders do you get to have before you are a sociopath? Because by sleeping outside her horses stall for 3 days, she now has added paranoia to the list......

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  11. I would like to see gelding of mustangs for population reduction. I don't like the idea of letting horses run wild anymore because they don't live long and hard life. I'd prefer to see them kept as breed where they are given medical care etc.

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  12. UEUH,
    Can you elaborate on the criticism of Bennett's book. Thanks.

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  13. I agree with the following:

    1) Responsible breeding is necessary.
    2) Breed registries are encouraging irresponsible breeding at a time when responsible breeding is absolutely needed.
    3) Know the cost of horses before you get involved.
    4) Learn about nutrition, quality horse care, and other basics of horsekeeping. Don't skimp on the basics.
    5) Overpopulation is a problem, and we must find a humane, reasonable solution to thin horse numbers. (I personally support slaughter in that regard, so that's a place where we diverge in opinion.)

    Speaking of diverging opinions...what I don't agree with:

    1) Rescues are the answer to all the problems.
    2) Every horse can and should be saved. (Fugly's stance on this has changed, though, as she used to suggest that not every horse needed or deserved to be saved, but her actions completely belie that idea.)
    3) Every skinny horse can be fattened up with the application of alfalfa hay and beet pulp.
    4) Alfalfa hay is better than grass hay. (Where in the world did she ever get that idea?!?)
    5) Slaughter is evil.
    6) It's OK to bash people for mistakes without getting the full story.
    7) Depression, obesity, joblessness, and other vagaries of modern life are mock-worthy and grounds for dismissing the humanity of anyone caught in the thick of something unexpected.
    8) Drama is better than steady-as-she-goes movement forward.
    9) A picture can tell us everything we need to know about a situation and is not, in fact, just a snapshot in time that may or may not tell the full story.
    10) If someone put something on the Internet, it's fair game to attack, mock, criticize and otherwise tear apart. (Gee...sometimes people just post stuff to share with friends or they have a legitimate question and are learning new information. Mocking (being that super-effective tool for social control that it is) can really help. Riiiiiight.)

    There's a reason why I started reading FHOTD. Some of the fundamental message was extremely palatable to me, and I could respect someone who wanted to make a difference. But somewhere along the way, it all got perverted into what it is today, and that's why I'm here and not there.

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  14. rosesr4evr said...
    Snowponies, You'd better stop stalking me!!!
    -------

    Not to worry roses, SP stalks everyone. She'll either kill you or get bored trying. Either way she'll leave eventually. That gal's a mean one.

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  15. Anon: I'm not saying that any rescue is without vice. I'm just saying that a rescue needs to do more than fill the barn and beg for donations.

    BHM: I had a detailed response to your question, but it got eaten so this one is going to be shorter.

    It's been maybe ten years since I've expounded upon Bennett's work but I remember at the time bringing up, not her name (most people didn't' now know who she is) ruffled feathers. Mostly though she's been ignored. Dismissing is more effective than arguing it. So i guess controversial is the wrong word- except I suspect if people actively discussed her books there would be controversy.

    On a whole scale she suggests that coformation is not a finite thing that can be measured in "right" and "wrong," but an indefinite thing that must be measured by context.

    Example: She suggests a horse should toe out to the same degree as the stifle- that breeding for a straight leg creates unsound horses.

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  16. Anon: I wanted to add, I chose horse-haven because it's the only one I know of off hand. I don't think I made it clear in either post that it's just an example. Not a standard.

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  17. UEUH,
    I can see why that's controversial. I guess her point is that if the leg isn't rotated to the same degree as the stifle joint then the impact is transferred negatively to other joints. I would like to see research to support this conclusion, however I can think of one example. With draft horses, the hooves are toed out to the same extent as the stifle joint is rotated. Theses breeds are sound despite heavy work and the rotation of the hoof outwards serves to keep them sound.

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  18. Deb Bennett's work fascinates me, as does a book called 'Horse Conformation as to soundness and performance' by Ben K. Green. His reasons for not selecting a horse with too small of a head make a lot of sense. The head balances the body and is part of the mechanics of stride...

    I talked to a race horse vet who said that all running animals are slightly cow hocked, matching the angle of the stifle. He said he rarely sees breakdowns in cow hocked horses, but sees breakdowns in what we as humans call perfect conformation all the time.

    Halter horses just creep me out...breeding unrideable horses seems like a bad idea.

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  19. I am sitting here after reading everyone's comments trying to think of something brilliant to say, but alas, you all have already said it.

    So, how is everyone's Monday going?

    How is that for witty, brilliant conversation? LOL!

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  20. Now for another update. I’m not kidding, I slept outside the past three nights at a horseshow because this story made me realize showgrounds aren’t safe and no way is some bottom-feeder touching MY horse unless he gets past me first.

    Ummm Fubb... You were at a crap show.. with your crap stallion.. Nobody gives a crap enough to steal him.

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  21. Kes,
    Really interesting. What I think they mean is "hock set" and not "cow hocked". In hock set the toe turns out to match the rotation of the stifle joint. This keeps the pasterns a straight and parallel to each other. With cow hocks the pasterns are not parallel to each other. If the pasterns aren't straight then the horse will experience negative stress on the joints.

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  22. Could be no one wants to steal BYC (unless they want to upgrade his home), but given the animosity that Fugs has earned, I could see someone playing a prank on her by doing something to make her THINK someone was after her horse.

    Like maybe just sneaking into the stall and hanging a "Kilroy was here" sort of sign on BYC.

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  23. Just wondering whatever happened to the plan to administer PZP to our Mustangs to control the birth rate. There was a huge amount of support for it during the development and testing stages. It's worked brilliantly (wherever it's been used) on herds of Deer and Elk and on the herds of wild horses on the islands off the East Coast..and I thought there was a Governmental mandate, as well as financial support to make it easilly affordable...but this isn't my feild of study so I haven't investigated it in depth and could have missed something important in some recent white paper..Does anyone know what is happening with this plan? It seems to me that controlling the numbers would be the best way of dealing with the Mustangs. But, as I said, I don't really know enough about it to voice an intellegent opinion..Just asking :)

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  24. bhm I have to disagree with you just a bit. A very high percentage of Draft horses do not stay sound through what is considered normal use.
    People forget that a 1000-1200lb. horse can tolerate harder ground with less lasting impact than most Draft breeds.
    And this big movement I have seen with more and more people choosing Draft breeds as their riding mounts. Ask a 500lb. man or woman to work at a jog for 10-20 minutes and see how that goes. Take a 500lb. man or woman on a 1-2 hour nature walk that includes grade inclines at a walk, jog, and slow run.
    And one thing that has the ability to annoy me right out of my gourd is jumping Drafts. Just because a person can does not mean that a person should.
    No offense, but there is a reason that most working Drafts are sent to auction by the age of 9 or 10.
    Draft use in working environment is almost always done at the walk. Changing that will eventually show consequence in my opinion.

    fugles slept outside of Cecil's stall for 3 days? Really? Did she get evicted again?

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  25. Dena,
    Untrue. Draft horse are endurance horses and are known for a hardy constitution. A draft horse, with proper care, will work hard everyday and still remain sound and still work into their twenties. From their mid twenties to early thirties they are given light work. If a draft is breaking down at nine then it hasn't been cared for properly.

    The draft breed, which is a misnomer, originated as a riding horse and a hunter. They are designed for endurance, collection, and jumping. There has been no alteration to their build during the 100 years, the late 19th to the early 20th century, that they were used for farm work. The Clydesdale, for example, was developed in the 18th century for riding and hunting. The test of a good draft horse in Europe, particularly in France, is to maintain collection while covering 200 miles in 12 hours.

    The effects of Jumping on draft horses has been studied to death. The conclusion is that drafts suffer no more injuries to during jumping than any other breed.

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  26. Like maybe just sneaking into the stall and hanging a "Kilroy was here" sort of sign on BYC.

    LMAO paint it on him in purple sparkle paint!!!

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  27. My guess is that she slept outside her stall this weekend because she either did not have enough money for a hotel. OR someone threatened her and her horse. You simply cannot go through life as that much of a bitch and not make a HUGE amount of enemies. Some wackos are just better left alone. But Cathy obviously has not learned that lesson, not only does she stand on her soap box and ridicule people she has created a virtual public square to flog people with. So it is inevitable that she would poke the wrong wacko with her stick and cause her self and her horses to be in danger. She wants to live her life like a private person yet be a celebrity at the same time. What good is fame without fortune?

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  28. NotAFollower said...

    Like maybe just sneaking into the stall and hanging a "Kilroy was here" sort of sign on BYC.

    -----------------------------------------------
    Or a sign attached to his tail that reads "I'm with Stupid"

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  29. "Kilroy was here" / "I'm with Stupid"

    Y'all are hysterical - thanks for brightening up a dreadful day!

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  30. Totally agree with Anon@11:42.
    What show was it, and where can we see the results?

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  31. I have to weigh in with bhm, I have no experience with actually riding draft horses, but I do know from my grandfather and step-dad that good draft working horses were prized for both their soundness and their longevity.

    As a matter of fact, Joe Hancock(QH) came into being simply because his sire, John Wilkens, although (arguably) probably the fastest son of Peter McCue had notoriously horrible feet. He was bred to The Brown Hancock mare, a daughter of a riding Percheron and out of a cold-blooded race mare simply to improve that one flaw.

    I always get a laugh out of people who refer to Joe Hancock as a coarse, drafty looking horse. Until he was an aged range stallion, he was anything but coarse or drafty looking. That bit of riding Perch blood indeed did fix the problem of horrible feet and good bone and excellent feet have become one of the most notable qualities of those Hancock horses.

    Most people also do not realize that that riding Perch stallion was not a big coarse work-type draft horse either. He was in fact most noted for being an excellent riding horse and there are stories that he was even match raced regularly.

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  32. I think a lot of it may have to do with the extreme size that we breed for nowadays. The old Morgan breed standards, for instance, exclude the 16 hand Morgans we see today. Percherons were common in this area years ago, and 16 hands was a big one.

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  33. My opinion on mustangs is that they are an invasive species. Horses died out in the Americas hundreds of years ago. I hate that they have people who look at them with doe eyes and want to save them all and think they are special. They're invasive, not native, do not belong. I would like to see steps to take them out of the wild permanently. Whether that's a gelding, slaughter, or well done adoption program I don't care. I also hate people who breed them. I don't care how much nicer you may have made them, people can't get rid of the authentic ones much less other breeds in this economy. Breeding mutts for mutts...

    Rescues can beg all they want. Honestly, anything they do for money is a form of it. Often they get stuck taking in animals because they are the only people in the area who can handle the animals and then they get stuck with care. So long as it's not shady begging. Like bailing out horses for slaughter, etc.

    Breeding horses don't always have to prove themselves in show. These horses are RARE, but still. A horse who has been used on a ranch for years and has proven to be a valuable partner is a kind that I feel can be bred. A sane trail horse? Not so much. You can find them all over. These still have to be diamonds in the rough.

    Horses can be kept in barbed wire. If they couldn't, we'd have been out of horses a long time ago.

    Some horses will not gain weight no matter how much you pump into them. Orchard grass and beet pulp is not a magical food mix. They need fat, and frankly adding vegetable oils will do more good than stupid pulp and more grass will.

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  34. My grandmother's great grandmother's Clydesdale was still racing other horses at 34.

    16 hh is small for a Percheron. Drafts, like the Shire, went from riding horse to a carriage horse for hundreds of years. They were alway slim and high stepping. Around the late 19th century they were crossed with Brabants to produce a heavy animal suitable for farm work. At this point they ranged from 16 h to 19h with a few 21 h exceptions. Once they were replaced by farm machinery they started to return to the slimmer carriage horse build.

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  35. The FUBBY followers are at it again on Yakima Craigslist


    I know this is not a correct form to add this to..but I feel that this info should be seen by local horse owners/rescuers. This is regarding Columbia Basin Equine Rescue -which has been closed down but still runs under name of Rebel’s Feedlot Sales (and is practicing same scamming techniques).
    Please..if you are a kind heart and want to truly help a rescue horse - STAY AWAY from this person. Here is more of the story: http://fuglyblog.com/?p=1947

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  36. Wow-did you flag it?

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  37. Anonymous said...

    What show was it, and where can we see the results?
    May 17, 2010 2:17 PM

    Cascade Silver Buckle Show
    Tacoma Unit

    Cedar Hill Training Center is going to post pictures and hosted maybe thats the only way Fubb can win LOL


    Im with stupid LMAO!!!!

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  38. I think fugles might actually have good cause to sleep outside her horses stall. I heard the VLC has tried to geld himself three times already.

    bhm: When I first read Bennett's books I went around looking at the conformation of horses. The stifle thing really stuck with me because horses with "straight legs" actually toe out to the angel of the stifle. Based on observation (not concrete evidence) I'd say that close to 98% actually meet this criteria.

    CinammonSwirl: I have to disagree with you on horses requiring a show record to breed. How is it that two stupid people can have a smart child? Logically you'd think this would be a rare occurrence, but it's not. In school we're taught basic genetics. We're given two genes with four possible outcomes. But in reality the genome is much more complete with a billion possible combinations.

    By breeding indiscriminately BYB's are refreshing the gene pool and the possible genetic combinations that would otherwise become stagnate through selective breeding.

    I see every trait as natures contingency plan. Think of ducks. Once upon a time they didn't swim because they didn't' have webbed feet. And being in the water didn't give them webbed feet. A genetic mutation occurred which lead to other genetic mutations.

    Take foxes for another example. An experiment was done to determine how many generations it would take to create a domestic fox. It was thought it would take many. But in just six generations they had created a domestic fox. The geneticists were surprised, not only at how quickly it was done, but that the foxes coat patterns changed. It raised a big question. Why are temperament and coat pattern linked? I've digressed a little. My point here is that if everyone selective bred to the extreme fugles suggests in a little as six generations, we could narrow the gene pool. But what we can't know is if the new equine is going to be superior, inferior, or contain a lethal genetic flaw.

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  39. I flagged it and turned her in to CL admin

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  40. Just came back online been playing with ponies all day :)...what are we doing to upset fug-up now? I absolutely refuse to go anywhere near her blog so I honestly don't hear any of her ravings...Does anyone know what is going on?

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  41. I am wondering why people even waste their time talking about her. She is a nobody.

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  42. "I am with Stupid," OMG that is classic!!!

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  43. Anon 6:43

    We'll all be here until everyone realizes that.

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  44. I'm beginning to feel a little sorry for Fug-Up. She can't seem to 'get anything right' lately. I don't know how much clearer I can say this...The Rebels is a FREE listing service.We are all volunteers. We have never charged anyone for running the ads. Not the FLO's and not the private individuals who list thier horses on our site. We don't solicit funds we don't accept funds. If absolutely neccessary Sam will haul a horse for a buyer and she will provide a short term QT. She charges for this, but it's not obligatory, merely a convenience at the request of the occasional buyer who wants to get a horse off the lot but can't pick it up immediately themselves. There is absolutely nothing about anything we do that could even remotely be considered a Scam. And if Mz Atkinson had stopped to get her facts straight, she would have seen this for herself.

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  45. Fubby cant get anything right....

    Fuuby says : I just do not get the appeal of having SO many horses. The most I have ever had was 16, and that was with 2 of us playing polo and I was running a busy lesson program, so I had lots of students to help with grooming, keeping them ridden, etc.

    You didnt have 16 horses Fubb the polo guy you were sleeping with owned them. Huge difference!
    How can you give lessons if you cant ride? Where are these students? Oh yeah that is all in your own little world Fubb

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  46. But with people our genetics vary. Two intelligent people are more likely to have an intelligent child. is has been proven in the science. Two 'stupid' people can have a smart child, but it's less likely. People genetics also don't follow the same genetic rules of other animals when it comes to passing on things sometimes. Yes both people and horses have GBED, and it was the human version that found the horse genetic code, but they both act differently and people with it live longer than an equine does. Both do eventually die, but it acts differently, so to compare people and animal genetics in forms of inheritance and effect is apples and oranges to me.

    Honestly, 99% of BYB have no business breeding and saying they are refreshing the gene pool is laughable at best. I certainly wouldn't want uncertain genes of faults in my pool. There are many options out there, it's just that the show people get hung up on a fad of one stallion for years. That's why the AQH is a genetic disease cesspool. Honestly, I think a lot of the quality and genetic problems could be solved by sucking it up, banning them from registration, and doing breed inspections for approval. That way even the unshown are actually quality animals. There is a reason many European breeds are looked upon with regard. It's because they took some pride in what they did, set the rules, and kept to it. I'd be perfectly OK with breeding unshown animals if this were the case here, but it's not.

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  47. uenduphere said...

    I think fugles might actually have good cause to sleep outside her horses stall. I heard the VLC has tried to geld himself three times already.

    Oh no is her sweet baby having a stallion moment? That explains the stifle problem. I wonder if her trainer is using him to breed ...Hmmmmm

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  48. Anon,
    I don't believe that Fugs ran and taught a busy lessons program. I also don't believe that she owned polo ponies. If her boyfriend did then it doesn't count.

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  49. CS,
    Yes, a horse has to have something to contribute to be bred. If they have conformation and talent then they don't have to show. At bare minimum I would say they have to have at least conformation.

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  50. We still need to be whacking judges up alongside the head for extremes of conformation in halter classes. When a genetic disaster body type like Impressive's is used as the breed standard for Quarter Horses...we have a problem. When mutant llama headed twisted legged freakazoids are representing Arabs, we have problems. When tortured praying mantis gaits and a genetic inability to respond to pain are ultimate Tennessee Walkers, no wonder the spread between show people and the breeders of saddle horses is getting wider by the day.

    This may be why I so despise the fubb attitude that just further divides the horse world. It's all a human on a horse folks. Or hook them up in harness to pull something. Tack and style and balance vary according to the job the horse is doing, but as long as the horse is treated kindly FREAKIN' GET ALONG!!!!! There is NO perfect horse or riding style that will do every single job at peak level.

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  51. Anyone heard how VLC did at his show this weekend?

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  52. I agree that new riders and re-riders need lessons.

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  53. Can anyone actually agree on what is poor quality?

    The answer is complicated: We're all wrong sometimes but we're all right too. Differences are good, even in the form of an opinion.

    And my opinion is the VLC didn't do so well at the show or she'd be all over her blog bragging about it.


    Fubbs: I may be ignorant about stallions but I've know plenty who breed and don't have stifle problems. Is that her excuse?

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  54. UEUH,
    What breed of horse do you have?

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  55. UEUH, very valid statement that we can't agree on quality, but a weakness that might be passed on should nevER be bred. From what I have heard, there is already one colt on the ground with bad legs by BYC, (I just keep thinkin' back yard colt...) and a stifle problem would be a red flag.

    It really doesn't matter what the stud looks like. What matters is what he throws. What the stud or mare looks like can give a breeder an idea of what genetics are there, but there's more than one superb horse that throws culls, and more than one rough looking stud or mare that consistently throws superb foals. There are also 'golden nicks' where two mediocre lines produce fabulous babies consistently.

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  56. Oh, I guess the point I was making is that if there's already a mediocre foal on the ground he's proven that he's not stud quality. He'd be a gelding if he were mine, or belonged to any of the responsible breeders I know.

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  57. the VLC has two, a colt and a filly. I imagine they are close to two years old by now. The colt, Bullwinkle, was gelded, and the filly is Lil Besscalade. As I recall, Fugly said that Cecil broke into a pasture with two mares and well, there ya go!

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  58. I have a caution about eliminating genetic problems. Be careful what you ask for because you might just get it!

    I am more familiar with modern breeding problems in dogs, so that is what my examples will be drawn from.

    In one dog breed, when the test for Progressive Retinal Atrophy became available, breeders hurried to breed it out of their lines. Dogs with PRA in that breed went blind at 6-7 years old, so surely that was a wise move, wasn't it?

    Sadly, no. The move away from PRA carriers created a bottleneck in the breed. There was a rare condition in the breed, copper storage disease, which kills dogs between 2-4 years old if they don't receive a special low copper diet all their lives. With the low copper diet, they can live to be 8-10 years old (far short of what used to be the normal 14-16 years old).

    With the bottleneck due to moving away from PRA, copper storage disease took over the breed. *Every* dog in that breed is now a carrier and about half the puppies born each year are affected.

    Effectively, breeders traded a condition that led to dogs being blind at six but living otherwise healthy lives for a trait that killed dogs off very young. That was not an improvement.

    In a different dog breed, they had huge problems with hip and elbow dysplasia. So when a male came along who was not only dropdead gorgeous but prepotent for good joints, people rushed to breed to him. He could be bred to bitches with poor joint conformation and all the puppies would show better joint conformation than their mother. That's one prepotent dog!

    When he died at 8 years old of cancer, it was sad but he'd sired lots of litters.

    When his best offspring died of cancer between 6-8 years old, that was sad, too. They had great joint conformation and they passed it along, too.

    Within 20 years, almost every dog of that breed in this country went back to the original sire. And most of the dogs of that breed die of cancer before age 6.

    It wasn't until the late 1990s that the answer became clear: dogs have 14 onco-control genes which must all be turned on for the dog to be protected from many forms of early cancer (does not affect incidence of geriatric cancers). That one male dog had two onco-control genes that were turned off, so he and all his descendants were fated to die of cancer young.

    In effect, breeders of those dogs traded a condition that leads to early arthritis but can usually be controlled via supplements and medication for a class of conditions (cancer) that kills off dogs by age 6.

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  59. Northern Dancer is an example of a horse with the wrong conformation that performed well.

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  60. I think its important that there is control of breeding organizations when they start establishing unhealthy standards. I would like to see a government agency that can be petitioned when the standard go wrong.

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  61. Just FYI, that horse is not an Appy, but a fleabitten.

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  62. I think a lot of the problem is that closed breed registries sometimes overlook the fact that usually their breed started out as a 'type' best suited to do a job or look a certain way.

    Many breeds have been influenced by outside genetics, for instance introducing Thoroughbred genes into the Quarter Horse. Quarter Horses didn't become a registered breed until 1940. When the genetic pool gets too small and concentrated, unexpected mutations can do a lot of damage to a breed, and HYPP is an example. That is a terrible thing to do to a horse.

    I've made some enemies because for years I've deliberately outcrossed my purebred dogs with a dogs of similar build and temperament, from another breed. The cross bred pups usually live twice as long as their purebred relatives on either side, with sane temperaments and sound bodies. I think tradition is sometimes not all that it's cracked up to be when it comes to purebred types.

    And I just love Morabs, so maybe the Walkaloosa's are not such a bad idea after all. There have been attempts to start several breeds lately and it may be that people are tired of the fragility of some purebred animals.

    In the case of a horse like Cecil though, there is no shortage of his genetic building blocks, and with the overpopulation of horses (hey, I'm quoting fubb here!) there's just no excuse to breed him...

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  63. Anon,
    Thanks for the correction.

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  64. The horse pictured in this post is beautiful...

    but am I the only person who wondered if he had Britney Spears attached to his head?

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  65. Isn't it funny how we can be 'elitests' about one thing and BYB about another?

    I would never dream of breeding a 'mutt' horse hoping to improve them, but my most favorite type of dog is a deliberate cross breed? (and yes, I know that is poor grammar-LOL)

    The only dogs I really seem to be drawn to are cross bred Blue Heeler, Border Collies. Both breeds have characteristics I really like. But both breeds have characteristics I really don't like. BC's have a tendency to be a bit too timid for me and I think they are sneeky. BH can be too hard-headed. Crossing them seems to very often seems to lessen the degree of each of the characteristics I find undesireable. Although, I do have an F2 BH/BC cross and he matured out to be much more like a BC than I would have liked.

    I have never been a fan of Red Heelers though and yet I ended up with a RH/Corgi cross. This dog has made me a huge fan of the Corgi's and I could definitely see owning one of those in my life.

    I think the problem people get into when they start crossbreeding though, is that to be successful at it, you have to be quite aware and knowledgeable about the purebreds you are working with and have a very clear understanding of what you are hoping to gain by the end result. And...it should make sense.

    Actually, what you are hoping to attain by breeding anything should make sense.

    Too many people start with inferior stock to begin with when they start attempting to cross-breed. How on earth do they ever hope to create something superior to a good example of the pure-bred they are hoping to improve when they start with genetics that are not even worthy of reproduction within the pure-bred strain?

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  66. Good point about the 'elitist' angle BEC. Superior pure genetic pools are necessary for superior cross breds, but then we have Morgans, who started out with one superior 'mutt' stallion. By crossing in animals with the same type, the breed is now set and is an absolutely incredible horse. I think maybe we should start looking hard at type, and holding registries responsible for reproducing the breed standard, which is a description of type.

    I don't remember any breed standard that recommends breeding unrideable horses, ala halter horses.

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  67. BEC said I would never dream of breeding a 'mutt' horse hoping to improve them, but my most favorite type of dog is a deliberate cross breed? (and yes, I know that is poor grammar-LOL)

    I have an Airedale/Border Collie that is the best of both breeds. I also have an Akita/ Rotty that is a mess. Fear aggression up the wazoo but we love her too.

    My TB just had a abortion due to the ignorant neighbor and his crypt paint he claims cant breed. It was the responsible thing to do.

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  68. Speaking from observation of the dog world:
    F1 crosses are very unpredictable, you don't know which traits from each breed will come through - you might get the worst of both, maybe the best of both, maybe it'll be a wash. Labradoodles and Goldendoodles are a good example. Lines that have been "stabilized" through three to five generations of careful breeding have consistent temperaments, coats and conformation. F1's and F2's vary wildly from their parents.

    In the breed I own, we have two controversial variations: Long hairs and blues. The long hair gene is a recessive, the blue gene is a dominant. The German breed authority (breed originated in Germany) is very picky about breeding for overall quality (conformation, mental soundness, performance). They discovered that excluding any dam or stud that produced long-haired pups lead to immune deficits in their lines - so they accept long-haired dogs. They also discovered that excluding blues from breeding didn't lead to any issues, so a blue coat is a disqualification for competition. They made their decisions based on preserving the health of the breed first, the look second.

    Here, in the U.S., we disallow the long-haired dogs (and have to watch for immune problems) but wanted to allow the blue pups (which are quite pretty) and got told by the Germans that if we did, they wouldn't recognize any of our breedings, thus cutting us off from the German bloodlines. We, in the U.S., worried most about looks and less about health. Shame on us.

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  69. Kind of like we've allowed the HYPP gene to contaminate so many breeds because they look purdy? That mutation came from one animal. It does kind of make the point that AI is not such a good thing for a breed. The gene spread like a virus, and the only advantage it gives is freakish muscle structure. The HYPP horses are not faster, stronger or smarter. Keeping our animal population diversified is a safety device to preclude that situation.

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  70. No kidding about AI or any overuse of a particular stud. A few years back there was a stud in my breed that consistently won Best of Breed and was used so much for a sire that for a few years you couldn't spit without hitting one of his get at local shows. He was good, but not that good, more very well campaigned and his owner took the time to put a performance title on him in addition to conformation. He was a bit short-backed and stubby, and that trait showed up in all of his pups. As one old hand put it "the ground is covered with stubby puppies". A case of people with a bitch to breed looking at the awards (did I mention he was well campaigned?) instead of the stud.

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  71. I've seen so many animal breeds fall apart when they hit the show ring, because 'what places' is bred to the exclusion of 'sane and sound and doing the job they were bred for originally.' Actually advertising 'extreme' conformation seems like such an oxymoron.

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  72. Irony with HYPP, his sire is the source for GBED in the AQH breed. It's funny in such a bad way. Yet the association and the people still don't give a darn. When I did a presentation on GBED, one girl asked why it is the associations problem. I nearly fell over dead.

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  73. Kestrel - likewise. I love AKC breed groups that emphasize function, but even in those breeds there are some that I would never own a "show" animal from. German Shepherds with collapsed back ends winning Best of Breed, Cocker Spaniels that would fall apart in the field winning group placements (ARGH!!!), fluffy pretty brain-dead Setters...the list goes on.

    When I first realized the same thing happens in the horse world, I was apalled. What's the point of a horse that meets a certain appearance standard but is otherwise useless? Dogs that can't do anything can at least be house pets.

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  74. Horses that can't do anything wind up in feedlots or rescues, unfortunately. Or quietly euthanized.

    The inherent risk of line breeding, or whatever you want to call closely concentrating genes...is that you must have the guts to cull, or someplace to warehouse the mistakes until they die out. Line breeding is an experiment that until recently, with the advent of DNA analysis, meant that you might not know for several generations what bad genes were blended with the ones you desired. There are many crosses that must never be made, and we only learned by trial and error which ones to avoid.

    Now I'm not saying that line breeding is a bad thing. Some of our best creatures are descendants of homozygous parents. It never hurts to have diffuse genetics on hand to fall back on if the experiment goes wrong, though.

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  75. Question Cinnamon Swirl...I thought GBED and HERDA were associated with King 234 and Poco Bueno, respectively and that Impressive was out of different lines. Did Impressive go back to King, also? Maybe the line is more prone to mutations!

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  76. bhm: I've had thoroughbred and one part Arab, but mostly it's been quarter horses.

    kestrel: On one hand I agree, but on the other hand I wonder how can we know it's a weakness? When I ask this question, I'm asking it in two ways. One how can we know our perception is correct. Secondly genetics are often linked. We're melding with DNA and the results aren't always what we expect. Hype is one example. We selected for muscles and we got a genetic disease. Also consider that despite thousands of years of selective breeding we still have cow hocks, club foot etc. I'm not saying we should breed for it, just that maybe all these things aren't so bad as we've been led to believe. I remember being taught that no horse was perfect but when we select a stud, we should look at the faults of both animals and try to breed better. It seems that attitude has changed to lets eliminate it. Also the golden nics with from two unremarkable parents isn't unusual or even surprising. Every horse carries a set of genes and these genes can be expressed in any number of ways. Great horses can produce crap, crappy horses can produce great horses. I think beyond confirmation, progeny is the only real indicator of breeding value. Horses that produce better than themselves are the only ones we should breed.

    Grainne Dhu - you said what I was trying to and what a great example.

    Anon: Cecile jumped the fence. According to Fugles the only way that happens is if you have crappy fencing, are a bad person, or irresponsible.

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  77. Great questions to which there are no easy answers, haha!
    That's why I think that the show ring should not be the end all...dogs must do a job and not bite their owners, (much!) and horses should be able to carry a rider or pull something...but then you have mini's who are bred to be cute...(when I'm too old to ride I'm gonna get some mini's and keep them in the house with diapers on them, yeeessss! Ahem.)

    The disagreements about what a proper horse should look like mean that there is more than one type out there, and the rabid fuglyites who only want to allow people they approve of to breed horses may destroy the animals. The thing that irritates me about fubb is that she's a classic case of 'do as I say, not as I do.' She'd have her followers out with the torches after a back yard breeder... like herself.

    I think breeding out things that lead the animal to have a painful life, like HYPP, should be bred out though. There are a lot of horses with muscle that don't carry a gene that makes their muscles twitch uncontrollably even after a nerve block. I've worked with a few horses that were positive, and it's truly the creepiest thing I've ever seen when they have a bout, and they act very sore-muscled afterward.

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  78. First off, would just like to point out that in my humble opinion, your "Appy" pictured at top is a fleabitten GREY horse, a pretty one at that.
    Current means of horse slaughter and the trip and all the experiences that the horse goes thru to get there- inhumane
    A well placed bullet with tranquilizer first- humane
    vet euthanasia- humane
    Fugly board successful 100% in their quests- no
    Is her heart in the right place- mostly yes
    The exposure she gives rescue horses is good and tho she does not place them herself, she does help as in the 3 strikes rescue and others where she helps evaluate horses and has several retired and safe for life broodmares she takes care of or pays someone else to- that is all good
    Thinks that poorly bred, poorly conformed grade horses are mostly bad -ok on that too.
    Horses are dependent on the care of humans so the lack of that care reflects badly on humans- yes!

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  79. Question Cinnamon Swirl...I thought GBED and HERDA were associated with King 234 and Poco Bueno, respectively and that Impressive was out of different lines. Did Impressive go back to King, also? Maybe the line is more prone to mutations!

    Sorry, my mistake. So many danged mutations I forget which belongs to who. You are correct.

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  80. Cecil didn't jump the fence, there was a problem with the tape and girls got into the stud pen, if I remember what YHI said. The two that weren't treated for an accidental pregnancy had been bred recently, IIRC. YHI did genetic testing and confirmed BYC was the stud.

    If it were up to me *NO* western pleasure horse would be bred. Those sickle hocks drive me batshit. A leg should not have that much set to it. I mean, average a halter horse and a western pleasure horse and you might have a horse with a decent back leg. (yeah, yeah, I'm a geneticist, I know it doesn't work that way.) But WP preferred conformation is as bad as halter to my eye.

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  81. Thanks guys, I've discovered one of the coolest articles ever by looking for articles on this fascinating subject of dog genetics! Unfortunately for you guys, I have no idea how to do links, but here's the name of the article.

    To Test or Not To Test
    George A. Padgett, D.V.M.
    Professor of Pathology
    College of Veterinary Medicine
    Michigan State University

    And also, I think small breeders are the saviors. Small breeders frequently go against the norm of breeding only the current fad bloodlines, and act as a reservoir of 'heirloom' genes. More than one overly concentrated breed of critter has been saved by finding a group of animals that a dedicated small breeder has preserved. It is the hope and dream of every 'back yard breeder' to produce that one in a million horse, and it does happen often enough to keep the dreams alive.

    One of my favorite horses was a POA /Draft cross. Don't know how it happened. Most useful and lovable little guy you've ever met. I turned down some top dollars for that horse, because how would I ever get another one like him?!

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  82. hooflyte: About the pic of the fleabitten horse mistaken as a appy, it's already been corrected and acknowledged.

    Also, a little sickle hocked can help a barrel horse. Gives them the spring to burn the turn.

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  83. From CinnamonSwirl
    'Irony with HYPP, his sire is the source for GBED in the AQH breed.'

    I'm not sure about your sentence here CS ???...

    GBED is a genetic defect associated with King P-234, although it is believed to have been more likely to have been passed down through Zantanon(King's sire). Since the condition has been around for so long though, it is difficult for them to pinpoint any one particular horse or bloodline as the cause. The fact that about 80% of the horses that are carriers have King P-234 in their pedigree is the primary reason to believe that GBED is linked to King.

    HERDA is a genetic skin condition that affects horses of Poco Bueno descent. It might be interesting to note that PB is a son of King P-234 and that a full brother to PB, named Old Grand Dad was also responsible for passing on the genetic defect. Again, it is now believed that HERDA may have been inherited from Zantanon or someone from his pedigree.

    Impressive was in no way related to either King or Poco Bueno. Impressive was in fact heavily line-bred to Three Bars(TB), as Three Bars was his paternal grandsire, his dam's paternal grandsire as well as her maternal greatgrandsire. It is unlikely that Impressive's linebreeding was related to his spontaneous genetic mutation resulting in HYPP. There were a multitude of horses during that era that were line-bred/in-bred to Three Bars and no other's have ever turned up presenting the same genetic malfunction associated with Impressive.

    And finally, Anon 6:36pm-A little sickle hock doesn't hurt much of anything on any horse, at least in my opinion, however a barrel horse's 'spring' comes from a strong stifle. Horses that are lacking in stifle strength will make up for that by pushing off of their hocks and often become sore relatively quickly...leading to the necessity for time off, hock injections and even permanent unsoundness.

    I remember when everyone used to size up a potential using horse by walking behind him and making sure the stifle was wider than the points of the hip and that a horse had adequate inner and outer gaskin muscle. The old timers didn't usually care overly much about the length of the hip as long as those areas were correct. That is where a horse's power comes from. His underpinning(hind legs) only mattered in that he did not interfere with himself.

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  84. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  85. Okay....blogger is being totally weird.

    I left my comment last night, it was there and then gone, then all of the sudden it pops up again.

    Sorry CS...I did not see your comment acknowledging Kestrel's question about the King/Impressive connection.

    hahaha-word verification = dented

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  86. I didn't mean to sound as harsh against sickle hocks as I probably did. I just find the outline of the WP horse -- looks to me like a horse hunched up with his back end too far under and his nose on the ground -- not pleasing. I can't imagine trying to ride one of them, to me the riders always look like they're about to slide off the horses' ears.

    Some conformational "errors" do help a horse perform better for a specific job. And minor problems should not necessarily cause an animal to be disqualified from the breeding pool. QHs were never my thing, but I'm not convinced that the amount of money involved in various QH showing is helping the breed improve.

    On another note, I actually think Bullwinkle is a cute little horse. He doesn't seem to have inherited the icky back legs BYC has. But it's hard to tell as his legs change from photo to photo and as he ages.

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  87. So...going back to the "Review" aspect of this blog. WTF? It's like there is no way to please Fugly (yeah, we knew this).

    Today she's ranting on someone who's trying to give away a filly, clearly stating the horse needs surgery. What? You'd rather they dropped the horse at auction? Agreed that giving away a horse that needs surgery is not the most responsible thing a person could do, but it's not the worst thing by a long shot.

    And a couple of days ago, going all over righteous about an Icelandic (or was it Fjord?) horse farm whose owners just can't keep it going and are being helped to disperse their herd. The animals seem mostly healthy, just not handled and there are a bunch of stallions. Instead of attacking, why not help?

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  88. Wow, with all the dirt slinging on Fugly here, you would think that the one who posted the pic of the Grey horse would know the difference- this is a mistake that novices make.

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  89. About the pic of the fleabitten horse mistaken as a appy, it's already been corrected and acknowledged.

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  90. go back and worship your idiot leader formerly known as Fugly we have renamed her Fubby because she is F^&ked Up Beyond Belief Yeah!

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  91. Anon 12:57 is engaging in an attack method typical of children and the desperate: if you can't find anything to criticize in the content, find some petty mistake to pick on.

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  92. Darcy Jayne, US breeders didn't exactly ignore longcoated GSD. They are disqualified from the conformation ring, yes, but that doesn't mean they weren't used for breeding by breeders who wanted to lessen the risk of immune problems and increase the chances of getting good, calm temperaments.

    Keep in mind that longcoat covers a variety of coat lengths and types, from a relatively short, harsh coat with more fringing on the ears and pants/skirts area to coats that are almost as profuse as a rough Collie.

    And, in fact, there have been longcoated GSD champions. I bred a longcoated puppy myself and figured out how to scissor her so that she looked like a normal but plushy GSD. I never entered her in the breed ring because a) I was more ethical than that and b) she was as long as a train (who knows how ethical I would have been had she been missing a couple inches in the middle?!).

    I think the advent of DNA testing for parentage will eventually lead to the end of the old stud book system. Twenty years ago, it was easy to quietly fudge on parentage. DNA testing is putting an end to that sort of fudging and I doubt anyone is going to appreciate the results.

    I have always been a fan of an open studbook. If you breed a Bulldog to an Afghan and the resulting puppy looks like the ideal Irish Water Spaniel, I say enter it as an IWS. Allow dogs to win conformation CH based solely on their phenotype.

    I have owned five CH and they were all, so far as I know, honest as to their papers. I had nothing to fear from competition, my dogs all earned at least one of their majors by winning the breed out of the classes.

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  93. Sounds like You're damned if you do...and damned if you don't according to ole' fubb.

    People giving their well bred horses away before they get skinny is bad? Why? The horses sound well bred, are of a desirable breed, and it will give people a chance to own a fabulous horse. Damn sight better than a broke down race horse or a screwed up mustang, or some rescue freakazoid. Oh, silly me...the rescues will not be able to show pitiful pics and collect money since the horses are in absolutely no danger and have never been abused.


    Being honest that a filly needs surgery is bad? WT...hell! Maybe someone will want to do the surgery and give her a chance. Maybe not. You never know if you don't ask. They might have to kill her, but they're exploring all options first. It's kind of hard to change your mind after they're dead.



    Maybe the horse owners should just euthanize them all, so no one else would have chance to own them?! They're better off dead? Absolutely crazy. Is that what the fubb policy is now? It's sure sounding like it.

    I have a problem with euthanizing a perfectly good horse just because you are so selfish that you think you are the only one who could provide the animal with a good home. That same horse could very well find a fabulous home and live a long and happy life. Of course an animal that is in pain, untrained, or dangerous changes the decision. There is a big difference between responsibly putting a horse out of it's misery and killing it for vanity.

    Fubb is doing a really horrible thing to horses when she attacks people who are asking for help. One of the common denominators of abuse of all kinds is secrecy.

    Somewhere in the rescue drama we've lost sight of the fact that MOST horses are NOT abused.

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  94. Here's the thing. If Fugly didn't have a blog, this one wouldn't exsist. This one is just as mean spirited as FHOTD - both are quite disgusting. The amount of time and effort you people spend bashing Cathy, FUGS, FUBBY or whatever you want to call her is as pathetic as her own crazy followers. Everyone ought to be ashamed of themselves - you all make me sick.

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  95. Okaaay...deep breathe here. I wonder how fubb and the rabid horde would have reacted if the elderly couple had had the herd hauled out and humanely bullet euthed over their graves!!! Barbarian chieftain style!

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  96. Anon 3:04 you are correct about one thing: if FHOTD was not mean spirited and hypocritical, then yes, this blog would probably not exist.

    Sorry you feel this about about this blog. Just so you know, I follow this one because I am tired of watching people being "outed" for without the full story being told. The hypocrisy was just too much - it started off OK but then seemed to take a smarmy turn.

    And, please notice, this particular thread asks what we do agree with her on. And there were many answers (myself included). And there is alot of discussion on the positive aspects of how to handle things without discussing the best way to harass someone.

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  97. Will someone please tell Cathy that a very good attorney would have to spend a bit of time researching if what she says is slander or libel. I would think that there are people out there who might find the potential in this little filly and be willing to pay for the hernia surgery. Maybe a vet will take her and do the surgery himself. One just never knows. Or perhaps this young woman could take a lesson from the grand ass herself and call it a rescue and let everyone else pay the bill.

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  98. Wow. I just checked out FHOTD. I'm stunned at the attack on the woman with the filly. Fubb's stand is that no one with a serious illness has any business owning a horse! Of course any of us could get hit by a bus, so we'd better not own horses. Only fubbly can own horses. Since she has enough stashed to provide for them for the rest of their lives. Or has the kookaid ready for them at her funeral. Crap. She's insane.

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  99. It's common for people over 45 to have some type of infirmity. So I guess none of us should own horses.

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  100. Jezz Anon, for someone who is sickened by name calling and bashing you sure do a lot of it.

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  101. Wow Anon 4:17, genius! She'd be able to collect money and keep the horse. Too bad that nice responsible people don't think like that.

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  102. How sad that someone who tried to help a family member by taking her horses and the horse, by placing the ad to see if someone wanted the opportunity to take her and get her fixed...and nasty, self-righteous fugly doesn't have enough decency left in her soul to stop the harassment?

    How DARE anyone ask for help or offer something to someone for free before you have invested more than you can afford!!!

    Don't you people know that you are supposed to max out your credit cards, miss house payments, face eviction or let human family members flounder to fix these horses...

    And THEN you can give them to a 'rescue' for free.


    But don't forget that you need to also come up with that extra $2k to hand over to those rescues too.

    Who cares that you were only trying to help out of the goodness of your heart?

    Only fubbs and rescues are allowed to have those emotions or ask for sponsors for horses or try to fob horses off on other people!!

    Shame, shame, shame on the ordinary person for EVER attempting to do the right thing!

    **Sorry, my sarcastic nature got the best of me!!

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  103. Anon 4:17

    First, welcome. I kind of march to my own beat. You probably remember that from my comments on FHOTD before Cathy tucked her tail between her legs and ran. I think your visit here is a good thing. You've come here to challenge us and I like a challenge. Telling you to go away just because you and I don't agree is exactly what fugly does. You won't get that from me, nor will I bully you. However if you behave like an idiot I will make fun of your idiocy. As long as you act like the intelligent human being I know you are, I'll treat you as such.

    You are correct. I could be doing a thousand other things right now. As could you. We're tit for tat on that one.

    We do dish on Fugly pretty hard. Most call her fubbs. I call her Fugles. I find Fugly's negativity and that of her followers very frustrating. I have said that so often its meaningless. So I make light. Please visit my blog and feel free to challenge my thinking.

    Do you admire fugly? We were supposed to be talking about what we agree and disagree with. The conversation derailed into genetics. We've come to the conclusion that eliminating x kind of horse probably won't work.

    So please, tell us your opinion. About what things do you agree and not agree with fugly? Since you come from fugly's blog the rules here may not be obvious too you.

    1. Cracking jokes is okay, but at the end of the day we discuss our opinions.

    2. People here don't jump on people just because we disagree nor is "You're just wrong, your an idiot blah blah acceptable."

    3. State your argument clearly and concisely, and be prepared to back it up with examples. If you do so, you'll get respect. But remember "I'm right because I am," is only valid when your sixteen and not really.

    4. I am new to this group, but as I explained to everyone here, my feathers get ruffled when bullies spew crap. Don't behave like a bully. As long as your capable of an intelligent conversation, I'll happily toss the ball all day.

    So here's your first challenge from me: Why do you feel the need to defend Fugly and/ or stir the pot? What do you hope to gain?

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  104. Nicely put uenduphere! For once, I agree with everything you said . ;-)

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  105. Or maybe to fix and/or rescue a horse a person is supposed to live free at other people's houses, lose his or her car, bounce checks, blow off his or her student loan, and accrue unpaid traffic/parking tickets. Where does compassion end and co-dependency begin? How many years ago should therapy have begun?

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  106. I like that Fugs has made people aware that there are lots of good actors who could fool an owner into thinking the horse is going to a good home. Fugs comes from the business world and has seen a lot and hence is not as naive as some owners might be. And Fugs hates cheap people who will spend on everything else for themselves but not for their animal's health care. That being said, people still have to make sure they keep their homes and keep their children's health insurance premiums paid, etc. Who really knows that owner's financial pressures? It would just be good for a person asking for help like that on Craigs List to at least do some minimal checking on the potential new owner before turning the horse over.

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  107. Fugs comes from the business world?

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  108. UEUH - wow! Very well said. You are so obviously completely off your rockers that you sound amazingly sane. Go figure.

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  109. Does anyone know the name of the Lawyer that fubs attacked his kid?

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  110. Anon 9:49 Good question. And I'm wondering about that, did the attack on the attorney's kid do anything to halt fugs in her attacks or make her change her behavior? Someone was talking about that on this blog a bit back, but I don't recall which post it's in or if much was said.

    UEUH: Nice comment, very well said!

    ETA: Ok, I'm offended. My captcha is "bigme" Sheesh! LMAO!!

    ~DK Fluffeh

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  111. Ya think the filly's owner or seller is not going to check out who the filly goes to?! That's quite an assumption to base an all out flaming attack on.

    And fubb comes from the business world and is not as naive as owners? (Dear God in heaven...the woman is a megalomaniac and has convinced others she has a realistic world view. Save us.) That's another assumption. All of the breeders I know are business people. Who have a house, a car, land, and horses. Who really do have jobs. Who have children, family members, pets and friends that depend on them. They all have lives, and do not deserve to be judged by someone like fubb, who has admitted that her horses are boarded with friends, she has no spouse, no children, and no responsibilities.

    I also personally know of several horses that were bought from Craig's List who went to very good homes.

    I also know of horse owners that are juggling bills in a bad economy who are not spending a lot on frills for their horses, but are not buying frills for themselves or their children either. They're all getting by, together.

    Yes, there is abuse and bad things out there. Try working as a child advocate. To keep it in perspective you have to look at the vast numbers of healthy, loved, kids or you lose perspective.

    The rescue mentality of bashing people so you can steal their horses is a little freaky as far as I am concerned. If a rescue really wanted to make a difference they would help the horse and owner stay together if the only problem is unfortunate circumstances.

    Remember...it's complicated. For every 'black and white' case there are thousands that have extenuating circumstances you may not be aware of.

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  112. Oh jeez, you guys type faster than I do! That was directed at Anon 9:19.

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  113. One other thing, questions.
    How DOES fubb pick her targets?
    With all the really bad stuff out there, why did she pick on this woman or the elderly couple?
    Why does she usually pick women or children to harass?
    Did followers direct her attention to them?
    How much damage could a disgruntled or jealous person do to someone else by having them featured in such a horrid and ugly manner?

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  114. Kestrel
    Her nut case followers send her the info. She hasn't got the brain to think of anything original.
    I see she is using her go to IMO statement and took the part where she says "she doesnt edit her blog unless it is false" out of her reply to the cl ad woman. Yeah right Fubb cover that ass.
    This lady is receiving harassing calls and emails and that is defamation fubb.
    I would also like the name of that Lawyer that shut her up after defaming his child. I know one recent target that would like to contact him.
    Jenna

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  115. Pretty sure VLC is headed to a Bucksin horse show in Albany Oregon this weekend...if anyone would like to go and video tape him and post it that would be great, would love to see how he moves and behaves.

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  116. Wait wait wait......so the same woman who OPENLY rolls her eyes at KRAZY KOLOR BREEDERS, is attending a show specifically for COLORED horses only. I wonder if the show managment knows of her hatred for everything colored, except her beloved CECIL, Big Yellow Cadi, VLC, crappy shoulder, weak hind leg conformation or whetever the heck we call him these days. Hello Kettle I am the pot but the rules don't apply to me because I am Teflon!

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  117. Ok, that makes sense. She gets her victims from her followers. She got the idea about race horses from a rescue blog.

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  118. From the blog

    Amazed says:
    MAY 20, 2010 AT 7:47 PM
    How do you know she got the filly in March? She just stated she has had her a month, is selling saddles to try to raise the money and is working on a payment plan for June. For someone who is trying to help out a family member, you seem intent on roasting her. Why?

    fhotd says:
    MAY 20, 2010 AT 9:44 PM
    She told me in e-mail.
    My feeling is that she’s going to do the right thing and do the surgery. I hope so, and told her it would be my pleasure to post an update and offer the filly for sale on this site at her actual value once she’s had the surgery and is registered.

    WIHAH back - so she thinks this person is going to do the right thing and STILL continues to let the flames go on and had not modified the post. I just can't believe there is not a cyber stalking law that won't address this yet. Sorry for the rant - bullying gets to me to no end.

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  119. This is the first I've heard about a successful suit.And it seems to be amazingly absent from the Web. Could anyone supply more details , please.

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  120. "I was wrong" is not part of fug's vocabulary.

    Have you ever noticed that on the cover of The Globe or Enquirer how they make all of these dramatic one line statements? But then when you actually read the story inside, it's not even remotely the same?

    **My husband buys those rags left and right for his bathroom library-LOL

    That's what fug's blog is like. Dramatic, tabloid style cover stories. She makes all of these wild assumptions and accusations, yet the truth of the story almost never lives up to blown out of proportion crap she spews.

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  121. BEC, I understand what you mean. I just get so mad because real people get harassed from it. I have had some experience with a stalker so I tend to get bent really out of shape when this happens.

    Well at least you have a backup supply for your powder room if you run out of TP :-)

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  122. Fubb takes absolutely no responsibility for her actions.

    "Ask a child if he intended to break his brother’s toy and see what kind of answer you get about how it was an accident. That’s human nature." A direct quote from her.

    Really. As parents, we DO ask, because sometimes it really WAS an accident. Or the toy malfunctioned. Or the neighbor kid did it. Or the dog chewed it. Or there may be an underlying problem between the siblings that needs to be addressed.

    And that may be her own nature that she's talking about, deliberately breaking other people's toys.

    It sounds like Chuck has quit letting any one buy horses from him. Thanks Fubb. The horses on the truck will surely understand that you just couldn't bend your principles enough to let the situation alone or try and cooperate. You're right...they're dead.

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  123. Oh, should have proof read. That should have been, you THINK you're right.

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  124. Just the thoroughbreds are dead. The ones she claims to love so much. The others have a chance.

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  125. That's so sad. And unnecessary.

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  126. Kestrel said "And that may be her own nature that she's talking about, deliberately breaking other people's toys."

    Doesn't this hit the nail right on the head?

    Wasn't she trying to break up YHI's relationship with her SO? To deliberately break YHI's toy so to speak?
    Didn't YHI say Fubbs stole her show tack? Again breaking YHI's "toys".

    What about all those folks who post photos of their horses for sale that she rips apart? She is breaking their toys too...

    How about people who proudly display their beloved horse, on their own website that she tears to shreds, isn't that "breaking their toys"?

    What about those folks she targets who have small breeding operations that get hammered by her blog, her goal is to put them out of business, again deliberately "breaking their toys".

    What about the children who post videos of them and their horse on youtube only to be shredded by fubbs and her crew? She is "deliberately breaking their toys" by taking their joy away.

    She is a thief. She steals people's joy, pride and privacy.

    What good has she REALLY done with the blog? "saved" Champ? *snerk* She could she have done the same by posting on any horse message board, at least the message boards have moderators to rein in her crap.
    She never has anything genuinely NEW to post, it is always regurgitation of something already posted on other message boards, or something you could just as easily read in a book, as your vet about, or spend 15 minutes on any horse message board already established.

    As far as I can tell her intentions are ok, it is just that she is such an insufferable bitch and megalomaniac that the good information is absolutely DEVOURED by her horrible personality.

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  127. So now that I have the VLC=BYC, it was finally time to look into insurance. I was surprised to find out how reasonable it was to get both mortality and major medical insurance! The application process was simple and they had a formula for calculating value without a formal appraisal. They explained to me that I could always upgrade the coverage as his value increased throughout his show career.

    And the plot thickens.... When he injures himself being a stallion she will collect the $$ I guess not needing a formal appraisal was necessary since he has no show record and 2 not so hot foals. LMAO

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  128. Grainne Dhu - I wasn't talking about GSD's when I mentioned longhairs. But thanks for the info. :-)

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  129. In case anyone is wondering, the breed of dog I have is Weimaraners. I have just one now, a blue (yep, a disqualified color). I got him as a rescue when he was eight months old, 7-1/2 years ago. He's a sweetheart of a dog, but came from an unethical breeder - poor conformation, has all of two brain cells to rub together (in a breed known for its smarts) and ended up in rescue because the breeder first sold the pup to a woman who couldn't handle him, then refused to help her rehome him. If he were a horse, he'd probably have ended up on the truck.

    My other Weim (I helped him into the Summerlands just a week ago) was just the opposite - a breed champion, amazing temperament, scary smart and I know that his breeder helped to rehome three of the litter he came out of when their owners couldn't keep them.

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  130. I love how the topic changes quickly when it appears the person outed is actually a decent individual...this is the second time she has pushed a "story" down when it turned out the person was decent.

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  131. I've also seen her tenaciously keep attacking even when the evidence shows that she was wrong though. Some people are more resilient than others. How many other people has she hurt like this, who may also have had very valid defenses but don't have the strength to back her off?

    The fact that she targets children is enough to make ME call her out. Freakin' bully. Any adult who picks on children is hideously abusive. Internet bullying is a crime because children have killed themselves because of it. If you say it... you're accountable for the consequences.

    How many good rescues has she destroyed, and how many warehouses has she helped? The featured horse, Tequila, on her rescue today is up for 'adoption' for $5500.00. It's lovely that they rescued a diamond in the rough, but it's horsetrading, pure and simple, to pick up a horse for nothing, rehab it, and sell for a lot. She's capriciously destroyed other rescues for asking for a lot less money than that. What criteria makes it dandy for one rescue to ask for the big bucks and not another? Advertising on her blog?

    The filly she squalled about is a perfect example of a horse that could be picked up free, do some work, and have yourself a fabulous horse. Was not fixing the hernia immediately abusive? Oh hell no. I called my vet and he said that he usually recommends a wait and see attitude on hernias. Especially the '3 finger size' described, since the hole is big enough to release gut, and small enough that it might close. Abdominal surgery should be a last resort in his opinion.

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  132. Fubbs is showing her ignorance again by trying to talk intelligently about hernias. Uh, Fubbs, a three finger hernia is less dangerous than a 1 finger hernia. Waiting for a youngster to possibly outgrow a hernia is not negligent. Horses can die from hernia surgery. Why risk it if there is a possibility the hernia will correct itself as the youngster grows?
    She is such a freaking dumbass.

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  133. I hope people are writing to HI!

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  134. Someone asked about the lawyer who allegedly took action after their child was featured on Fugly Horse of the Day by Cathy Atkinson.

    As I recall it, the rumour did not involve any legal filings. Allegedly the attorney in question brought Cathy Atkinson's blog to the attention of her employer, who then fired her from her position as a paralegal.

    I haven't seen any proof of this offered. I do recall Cathy Atkinson mentioning her paralegal job in Washington state on her blog several times. I think I recall seeing her mention she is now living in the LA area. Beyond that, I'm not aware of any evidence.

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  135. @kestral: I'm the person who mentioned Fugs is from the business world. You made some good points in response, and I had already been regretting my choice of words even before I read your comment this morning. I meant to specifically say (and should have specifically said) that Fugs is from the legal world and has known numerous lawyers and, being from L.A., also has been around lots of "show business types," and thus has met both very accomplished liars and actors.

    In no way did I mean to disparage the business accomplishments of horse owners who actually own and maintain property, raise families, etc., and have considerably more financial responsibilities than Fugs, and who have met those responsibilities without relying on as much help from others as Fugs has from time to time done. I was just trying to give her the benefit of the doubt as to her motives in the situation of this particular filly.

    However, I wish Fugs would consider that being judgmental is different from merely being discerning. Being judgmental is a contracting energy and a less than optimal frame of mind that can warp our perspective and actually prevent us from being discerning.

    Also, what often happens is that we "become what we judge." We will either attract more people who are doing the same things we hate, or we actually become like the people we are judging, doing those same things ourselves. And sometimes very judgmental people are really looking at everyone else in an effort to run from ever having to see what their own lives have become.

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  136. I just realized something funny, and after the past week I really needed something amusing to share :)...I just saw another of the Fugly Ads, calling the Rebels scammers and going into great detail about How Sam runs a mandatory QT to make the Big Bucks ( paraphrased)..then they include a link to the Rebels site...and if you click on the link the very first thing you see is our notice that a QT is highly suggested for all Feedlot Horses, but that we have No Mandatory QT :)The ad also warned people not to donate to us but, again if you follow the link they provided, you see our Statement that we are not a Charity and not associated with any Charity's...Is it just me or is this just plain funny?

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  137. Hi anon!

    All fubb had to do was ask a vet about hernia treatment before flaming. Misinformation is worse than no information.

    My husband was involved in the film business for many years, and still has friends in the business. One of my dearest friends is a lawyer. They are wonderful, responsible, kind, socially aware people. Are there jerks in the business?! Yup. Just like any other business. Trying to categorize her response as stemming from being around 'show biz types' would be admitting that she is driven by prejudice, not facts.

    Being a paralegal does not mean that you understand what lawyers do, any more than being a groom would qualify you to run the Spanish Riding Academy.

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  138. Helen, I sure hope you guys are doing screen caps (or whatever it takes to document this.) That's just creepy stalking.

    Plus, $15.00 per day for quarantine is a whole lot cheaper than having them quarantined at a vet facility. Hmm, $15.00 x 30 days is $450.00. That's not even the most expensive board I've seen in that area. What do most facilities charge for quarantine facilities?

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  139. I made a hard copy of the first ad but didn't even see the second because it was flagged before I knew about it...I've been doing a little research into cyberstalking and according to House Bill 2771 (WA State) the first definition of Cyberstalking is :
    Rev. Code Wash. (ARCW) § 9.61.260. Cyberstalking. (2004)

    (1) A person is guilty of cyberstalking if he or she, with intent to harass, intimidate, torment, or embarrass any other person, and under circumstances not constituting telephone harassment, makes an electronic communication to such other person or a third party:

    This sounds very much like the entire Fugly Blog to me. And I'm seriously thinking about contacting the AG to ask if we could make a complaint. It's only a class C misdemeanor on the first conviction but, if she has been convicted of a prior defamation or harassment charge, it could be a Class C Felony ( according to the article)..Heck, I should ask before I post the link, shouldn't I? Should I post the link so you can read it? I could have misinterpreted something, or read it wrong. And I wouldn't want to be sharing any 'iffy' information.

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  140. I would just recommend making the complaint immediately. Law enforcement and the prosecutor will be able to tell you if she falls within the parameters of the law you cited, or whether another law would be applicable. There are state laws and federal laws, and both apply to the internet. They both need a complaint to be filed before they can act. And it does sound like the law would be applicable...good. I'm sick of mean people!

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  141. Awrighty...First letter sent. I probably made a Royal Fool out of myself. But I wrote a short description of the Rebels and included a copy of the Ad.... If nothing else they might feel sorry enough for me to at least give me some direction in this :)...Keep your fingers crossed.

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  142. My company has folks who work with law enforcement to deal with online problems (spam lawsuits, harassment, etc) and I have some experience in dealing with cases like this. I don't think what she's done will garner the attention of a DA or AG. There's just not enough demonstrable damage. The standard wisdom is that there has to be 50K in damage for it to be a case worth pursuing by the government. I can't imagine that even if you added up all the sales she's interfered in that you get to that level.

    But, if you still want to submit a complaint, I would suggest putting together a brief (no more than 2 pages) report. Stick to the "ongoing pattern of harassment against horse owners engaging in perfectly legal behavior". Pick 2 - 3 examples from her blog, summarize them in a sentence or two and make a statement about the specific harm she caused with her behavior. Keep everything you say it focused on the ongoing pattern or harassment and specific harms. Don't even mention any of the other things about her. Nothing about naked pictures or tack stealing or boyfriend stealing or even bounced checks. Mention none of the drama around her, stick to how she has harmed the people she writes about.

    Keep it short. These guys are busy and they're not going to want to read pages and pages of information. Give the document to someone who's not been following fugly for months or years and ask them if they understand what you think she's doing wrong just from that document. If they don't understand, the DA/AG won't and at best the complaint will be shoved in a drawer somewhere.

    I still think it's going to be hard to get official attention on her, given she's not the one sending emails or calling. Her role is closer to that of the anti-abortion folks that put out information about doctors and then say "but we didn't do it to get these doctors killed." There have been a few attempted prosecutions, but there's not always clear law on how responsible they are for the murders.

    In my semi-expert opinion she's just not doing anything serious enough to trigger an investigation by a DA or AG. However, getting something on the record about her behavior may help when/if one of her victims actually takes legal action against her. As 3rd parties we really have no standing to file a civil suit and can only provide the information to the prosecutor.

    She knows this and that is why she's not worried about any legal action against her. Even for a civil suit, the victims are looking at tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer fees, years fighting this out in court and ... no upside. The only thing she has of value, if stories here are to be believed, is BYC.

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  143. At this point, I'm honestly not harboring a lot of hope that my little complaint is going to make a lot of noise. I'm basically looking for a starting point, the correct office or maybe the name of an official who deals with this sort of thing.Mz Atkinson will not be 'impressed' by my whining, she will continue to bully and harrass. But if the name of the Official is posted so people know who to contact and enough people make enough complaints, someone will notice eventually.And of course I didn't mention any of the other stuff :) I want to keep this focused on the Horses and the harm she has done to them...If she hadn't messed with our ability to help the Horses, I wouldn't have even recognized her existence.

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  144. It's a step in the right direction, Helen, and you're getting the foundation stones of Hope in the building that she can have a stop put to her cyber bullying! Good job! And great info, Fiona, now let's hope this can start opening the legal doors that need to be opened.

    ~DK

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  145. I hate having a second thought after hitting post comment, but, what about the 20 year old that fugs and her crew bashed because she went in to a class, took the ribbon, GAVE the ribbon back, and yet still got harassed by her followers? Think they would be interested in following up after Helen with a complaint? I wonder if they still have the emails with the nasty comments for proof?

    ~DK

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  146. Actually I have found that fubb has an effective technique. Get enough people wound up, send enough letters and calls, and someone will pay attention.

    Use her own tactics. It's called karma!

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  147. You've got a point, Kes. Guess she never figured anyone would be smart enough to use her own tactics against her.

    ~DK

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  148. @Helen: Would authorities also possibly be interested if Fugly was giving out medical advice. As a paralegal, she should know that it is illegal for her to even give legal advice. So it would seem it might be even more illegal to give out direct medical advice, if she has indeed done so. Proof of that added to whatever complaint you are already making might give it more weight, do you think?

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  149. Anon 5:12: Only if she clams to be a medical professional, or is demanding/requesting money in return for her "advice".

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  150. Just keep sending the silly stuff she writes and her even sillier comments to HI!

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  151. Wondering how/why fugly knows or thinks she knoows that people who have thier horses posted for sale (even for free)do not check out the potential buyer/taker of thier horse. And why does everyone over there think kill buyers are surfing the net looking for free horses when there are more than enough horses at the auction or in the feed lots.

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  152. I have had alot going on this week so haven't posted, but just wanted to say that you ladies are brilliant!

    Anon 1:30, thanks for your response, it saved me from questioning what you were talking about.

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  153. Aw pfft! I do not wanna agree with Fugly...but in the case of the CL ads. It isn't actually KB's trolling for free horses. It's a bunch of different individuals who go to the homes, make big promises of wanting the 'free horse' for a riding mount then load it up and haul it straight to the auction or feedlot.In these hard economic times it has become a 'cottage industry' It takes no more investment than a horse trailer and some gas and makes a profit every time. There's a Mother-Daughter team that seems to be quite active in Washington at the moment. But yelling and insulting people won't make them 'hear' your messege. When people ask me, I offer a downloadable adoption contract - as much as I detest the things myself- and suggest they make a point of listing the license plate number and asking for the name of a vet 'so the current vet can forward the records'...If anyone hesitates to identify themselves they shouldn't get the horse.And if there is any trouble in the future, if they learn thier horse has been dumped, they have the license plate number so they can identify the dumper. It isn't brain surgery. Most people respond to a quiet voice offering help instead of censure.

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  154. Anon at 10:51 AM quoted
    "So now that I have the VLC=BYC, it was finally time to look into insurance. I was surprised to find out how reasonable it was to get both mortality and major medical insurance! The application process was simple and they had a formula for calculating value without a formal appraisal. They explained to me that I could always upgrade the coverage as his value increased throughout his show career."

    I just bought insurance for my new horse. At its cheapest it is 3.5% of the value of the horse if the horse is less than 50,000.00 Major Medical depends on what you want covered. $5,000.00 per year for colic surgery is about 150.00 a year.
    If the horse is a grade horse your must have photographs of the horse and a vet certify that the horse is sound and some way to ID the horse so a dark bay 15.2 grade horse isn't mixed up all the other 15.2 dark bay grade horses. If you are going to list the horse as a stallion and plan to use it as a stallion, well, more back ground work will need to be done. If you are going to as for loss of use, it depends on the use, a Rolex quality eventer is more expensive to insure than a low level WP horse. It's not hard to get insurance nor that expensive, insurance agents aren't fools. Who is most likely to insure a horse? Those folk with EXPENSIVE horses. Folk with EXPENSIVE horses are apt to care for their horses. Does Cathy believe that her horse is going to go up to $15,000.00 as a show horse? That is only 450.00 a year. No matter how much we love our horses, to the insurance brokers $15,000. just isn't an expensive horse.

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  155. That is cool stuff to know Helen, thanks! I was wondering why she was so rabid about CL.

    I do know people that have been honked buying a horse off there though. People are also going to auctions and getting cheap horses, putting a couple of weeks of rough training and whatever drugs it takes to present them as sound into them, then reselling them for a couple of hundred extra. Just enough extra that they stay below the radar, and usually the horses are presented as 'I'm broke and have to sell the kid's pony.'
    I saw very few actually rideable horses at that level though.

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  156. You know, most blog sites make you sign an agreement to keep it legal. How would a victim go about contacting the blog?

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  157. I don't read HI. My sister gave me a copy while I was cooling my heels at an Emergency room for light reading. She found on with a cover story about Saddlebreds. It reminded me of a _Tiger Beat_ type story "Justin Bieber uses tooth paste and flosses daily!!!! Here is how YOU can be just like Justin!!!"
    I don't recall the exact text of the HI saddlebred story, but something along the lines of "Saddlebreds are the peacock of the show ring! But they are versatile! Robert E Lee rode one, so did General Grant!


    HI is not in the business of giving out good information. They are barely in the business of selling magazines. What they do and do well is sell ad space. They say to Mega Horse International Products that a full page ad in their mag will cost X dollars per month depending on where the ad is placed. There readers demographics are (for example) pre teen girls whose household income is greater than $70,000.00. how have an average of $5,000.00 a year spending money and own a beloved grade horse, but dream of owing a show horse someday.

    All Cathy has to go is generate readership... Most likely the same readership that reads her blog now. I would wager Cathy's column is one of the least read articles in the mag. If anyone does read HI, check and see whose ads are next to her column. Are they big flashy ads or are they 1/8 page print ads for "Tupelo's miracle hoof and salad dressing".

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  158. Thank God for Cathy. What would we do with our free time!

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  159. @Anon 9:04

    Go back to your herd, sheeple. Your incessant bleating falls on deaf ears here. After the chuckles die down, that is.

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  160. I was being funny!

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  161. I spent a few minutes looking up HI demographics and found some interesting information
    New study offers insight into horse owners

    American Horse Publication survey results

    American Horse Publication Original Documentation

    Please note these are SURVEYS and have LIMITED value because they are SELF REPORTED information.

    I did find this interesting from The Horse Channel Link

    "Hot-Button Issues

    Given all the recent press given to the plight of homeless horses, it is not surprising that more than 60% of respondents selected "Unwanted horses and what to do with them" as one of the three most important issues facing the equine industry. The cost of horsekeeping came in second at 44.4% and loss of equestrian land was third at 35.3%.

    When asked what issues should be addressed first, nearly a third of respondents selected the unwanted horse issue. The second most common response was, "Not having the option of slaughter" with 17%. The youngest group of respondents, those ages 18-24, are most likely to view both horses going to slaughter and horse owners not having the option of slaughter as a primary concern. The lack of equine slaughter is less likely to be a concern for respondents with a household income of more than $125,000. Loss of equestrian lands is a bigger concern in the west than in the east.

    Respondents were given the option to propose a solution to the issue they view as most pressing. Nearly three-quarters of respondents did offer a solution, and the first 3,752 responses were analyzed. 22.1% of those offering solutions believe that slaughtering horses should be an option. Just over 10% propose breeding regulations or restrictions. Improved education for breeders and horse caretakers was proposed by 9.7% of respondents who offered suggestions."

    According to this survey information Cathy is right in tune with HI readers.

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  162. Hmmm, I wonder how much action would be generated by writing directly to their advertisers...

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  163. "Tupelo's Miracle Hoof and Salad Dressing."

    Thanks Kaede, now I have to change my shirt because that made me spew coffee all over the place.


    As far as livestock insurance, none of my equines are insured but most of my alpacas are. We carry $200,000 worth of coverage on fifteen of our twenty pacas. Of course, not all of them are covered for the same amount. The cost is $3100 per year which is broken up into quarterly payments. We did have one claim last year when one of our males died. We had to take his body in for a necropsy to explain his death, turns out he had cancer. We knew he had been very ill prior to our purchasing the herd, but he seemed to be improving, then one day it just went downhill fast. Anyway, he was insured for $25K, after the $6K deductible was paid, we received $19K.

    Given that we have the pacas as a business, that money was used to purchase a new tractor, a manure spreader and two new female pacas because the $19K is considered income.


    I have a favor to ask of the posters here. In Ohio, Masterpiece, a three month old alpaca was stolen by two teenage boys and an adult female from his farm so that they could have a little fun. Their idea of fun was to string him up and use him as a pinata. He was beaten to death and thrown in an abandoned barn. They have caught those responsible and they are being charged. There is a petition and his story on Facebook under Justice For Masterpiece. I would appreciate it if some of you would sign the petition.

    Thank you!

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  164. Also,

    Darcy Jane, sorry to hear of the loss of your beloved friend.

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  165. Great discussion. I'm enjoying reading it.

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  166. fhotd says:
    May 21, 2010 at 10:38 am

    I haven’t done anything different to her than many other people – perhaps you haven’t been reading the blog from the start. This has always been a major element of the blog. I name names, I often show pictures, and I’m not the one who put the phone number out there, she did by putting it in an ad in which she described her planned bad behavior. There are many kindler, gentler blogs out there to read if that style is more to your liking. If you ask someone their intentions, 100% of the time they will make excuses for themselves, lie, change the story, etc. Most people are very good at that. Ask a child if he intended to break his brother’s toy and see what kind of answer you get about how it was an accident. That’s human nature.

    And for that you self absorbed b^&ch... I pray someday you get what you deserve

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  167. Thanks, CCC. Of the eight dogs I've had in my life (including the one I still have), he was the only "once in a lifetime" dog.

    Here are pics of him (latest first):
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/dayngerous/tags/dante/

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  168. The part about people and intentions..."100% of the time they will make excuses for themselves, lie, change the story" sounds like Ms. Cathy is talking about herself.

    I'm completely in the dark about what makes her think the last couple of owners she 'outed' had planned bad behaviors.

    Giving a filly away and fully informing recipients?! Now that's planning to be bad.

    Laurie, who had no idea her horse was ever on a feedlot? That whole situation sounded like a publicity set up by the supposed 'rescuer' to me.

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  169. DJ, what a wonderful friend.

    I am looking at the loss of a very good friend that will be coming shortly. My dalmation Spot is failing due to Cushings, he isn't in any pain but the disease is definitely taking its toll. He is 12 now and has been very special to me. I will do what is necessary probably within the next 6 months and it will be very hard. Doing the best thing for our beloved friends is usually the hardest thing isn't it?

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  170. The problem with getting Fugly to see the reality of her bahavior is that you are battling her Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It is a no win situation. If you read the definition of this disorder, you will see what I mean.

    I truly hope that she gets what she deserves, but she will never admit that she was wrong!

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  171. CCC - yes, it is. At the same time, I am so grateful that we can help the fur-persons in our lives this way. In Dante's final two weeks, he told me clear as words "mom, please make it better, or make it stop". I made it better as long as I could, and he and I agreed on when it was time to make it stop. Our last gift to one another was knowing when it was time.

    In case you're interested, here is a company that will make a glass sphere that incorporates a little bit of cremation remains:
    http://www.heartglassstudio.com/order-heartglass.html

    I haven't decided yet if I will do this with some of Dante's ashes. I am going to commision an urn from a potter who knew Dante.

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  172. Kestrel - all anyone has to do to see Fugly's hypocrisy is read her posts about gelding and what should and should not be allowed to breed. By her own standards, BYC should have been gelded a long time ago.

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  173. So sad to hear about your dog DJ. I believe they are fireflies, sent to brighten our world for a while.

    And every time I see the initials BYC I think Back Yard Colt. Fubb is a back yard breeder. She has a horse that is all the quality she can afford, and is dreaming of the big time. And I think there's nothing wrong with a moderate quality horse per se... but quit attacking other small breeders, who usually have a far better quality horse!

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  174. "Planned Bad Behavior" I love it.

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  175. I'm still researching and found this interesting :)It's one person's definition of a Cyberstalker:

    Being a victim of crime is never easy. If you haven't tried it, don't. It changes you forever. It impacts the way you look at the world, and react to it. And cybercrime-particularly cyberstalking, is perhaps the worst of all. Because you can't see or confront your tormenter, it creates a sense of deep unease, and often outright terror.

    But what kind of creature is a cyberstalker? What makes them tick? First and foremost they are bullies. Inadequate sexually and socially, they migrate towards the 'net, where they can enact their deepest fantasies of power and control.

    They range from the usual Wannabees to the sociopath-the most dangerous of all.
    Which apparently is what I'm dealing with. What is the primary motive for this type of stalker? According to BullyingOnline "Jealousy and envy motivate the bully to identify a competent and popular individual who is then controlled and subjugated through projection of the bully's own inadequacy and incompetence. When the target asserts their right not to be bullied, a paranoid fear of exposure compels the bully to perceive that person as a threat and hence neutralize and dispose of them as quickly as possible. Once a person has been eliminated there's an interval of between 2 days and 2 weeks before the bully chooses another target and the cycle starts again".

    Totally lacking empathy or the ability to socialize within normal parameters, these individuals seek out people who appear to threaten their place in the order of things. Competent, capable people, people who refuse to be controlled or to compromise their integrity or system of ethics, become the subject of attack, until safely disposed of.

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  176. Kestrel - thank you. A friend sent me this a few days before my dog passed:

    "Dogs' lives are short, too short, but you know that going in. You know the pain is coming, you're going to love a dog, and there's going to be a great anguish, so you live fully in the moment with her, never fail to share her joy or delight in her innocence, because you can't support the illusion that a dog can be your lifelong companion.

    There's such beauty in the hard honesty of that, in accepting and giving love while always aware it comes with an unbearable price. Maybe loving dogs is a way we do penance for all the other illusions we allow ourselves and for the mistakes we make because of those illusions." -Dean Koontz

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  177. I love Dean Koontz, he is a fascinating person. He sure knows his dogs.

    Helen, that is creepily close to the mark, isn't it!?

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  178. Research indicates that bullies only pick on those they perceive as being safe targets. In other words, they select people who are unlikely or unwilling to cause a backlash that will adversely affect the bully.

    And right there is the answer to how Cathy Atkinson selects her targets for Fugly Horse of the Day.

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  179. GD,
    How does this affect the ads she picks? Female and possibly low income?

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  180. Hey! I just realized something..I was totally 'left out' of the discussion on breeding 'stuff', basically because I know nothing about it..But the point, here, is that I was left out...So I am going to find a short article on breeding practices, preferably containing teensy words, then I'll be an expert and come back to demand we start the conversation again. 'Cause I'll be an expert and have an OPINION :)

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  181. There is a study out of Sweden, I believe, that postulates bullies do what they do not so much to victimize people, but to "bond" with like minded individuals. They choose their victims because they are the ones they identify as being most clearly as the "other". Bullies know what they do is hurtful and damaging. That's why they do it. If a victim decided to change everything about themselves that is being id'ed as "wrong" this would NOT satisfy the bullies. The victims would be doing it for all the "wrong" reasons; therefore still being in the wrong.

    As far as I can see this is what FHotD is doing mixed in with GD's observation.
    She pick on selected people she thinks fits the profile of the person she wants to ID as the other. I believe for FHotD the "other" is best defined as NOT middle middle class person. NOT having the "correct" amount of education (Too little you are Dumb fat, hillbilly, illegal, lazy etc. Too much as you are "jobing the system, know better, evil, plastic surgery queen, etc. Not in a professional level job. A para legal is NOT a professional level job. You can be a high school drop out and do the course work at a Community College. It is a certificate level work and not a degree. And your job must not be as a laborer. No braceros need apply.

    In short FHotD is aiming for people just like herself. To quote Gene Wilder's character from Blazing Saddles ""You can't rush them. These are simple people, the salt of the Earth. You know -- morons."

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  182. Kaede! Now I've got tea all over my monitor! "You know - morons."

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  183. Kaede...Bwahahahahaha!!

    I LOVE that movie. I got the original version for my daughter to watch, cause she just wasn't 'getting it' when she saw the edited version on t.v.


    ...And yet, it was so obvious that even if a person is an 'other', if she decides to befriend them then it's okay for them to be less than ideal owners, rescuers or breeders. Funny how that works isn't it? ;)

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  184. That is just it, she has decided to "bond" with them and therefore all their "wrongs" BYB, horders, kill buyers, whatever... those "wrongs" are seen as OK because of circumstances. The circumstances is that FHotD wants them for some reason. Another thing mentioned in the Swedish study is that the "outsider" group can change in an eye blink. Leaving previous "insiders" hurt, damaged, puzzled and open for predation by the bully. Cause the bully know all the buttons to push. The object for the bully is to stay in control of the group. If someone leaves the group.... Well watch your back.

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  185. "You know - morons" LOL.

    Since Fugs doesn't grow in her knowledge it indicates that her reasons are to bully.

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  186. I'm going to chime on on this bullying discussion.

    Purely from observation, this is what I speculate motivates Cathy.

    1. I want to Be a Respected Horse professional: Up until recently Cathy has belonged to the not so select group of non-professional horse people. She is a mediocre rider and trainer. Her anger stems from what she perceives as personal insult. People with (in her mind) less education and skill being respected within the horse community. You see people fawning over the foals of the BYB's and the skills of semi-competent trainers all the time. She felt and feels that she is one of the most competent horse professionals in America. Yet whenever she commented she was ignored and (keep in mind I'm guessing here) often ridiculed. The blog is revenge for all those slights real and perceived. If I were to translate her blog into one sentence it would be something like "Whose awesome now, be-yatch!"

    2. Deeply Envious of Leaders: Cathy has spent most of her life secretly screaming "Pay attention to me!" She is both envious and jealous of people in leadership roles. She recognizes that leaders are respected by the people they lead, and she desires that respect. But its a mystery to her how someone she perceives as incompetent could be a leader. The skills of good leadership are a mystery to Cathy as are many other social skills. She resorted to bullying on the internet and suddenly she found herself in the position of a leader.

    3: Everybody Loves Me: Cathy has mistaken human fear for fondness. Her supporters don't really like her any more than she likes them. As a group they function similar to a pack of wolves.

    The angriest of her members have the highest standing in her social order. This is because they are easy to control. Even smart people with good heads, loose themselves when they're angry.

    When people behave in ways that are perceived negatively by their subconscious, they loose dignity with themselves and a sense of rightness. Instinctively they look for leadership. Good leaders direct them toward of path of equilibrium. Bad leaders encourage them to repeat behaviors that created the unbalance.Good leaders will have huge gaps in which their "followers" function well without them. Bad leaders often have followers that become fanatic. They distract themselves from the need for balance with emotional highs.The worse they behave the more they need the bad leader's direction.

    Cathy ensures her control by keep her group unbalanced. When she targets people outside her group, she unites everyone.This creates a sense of security and oneness with in the group. But too much unity can cause a real leader to emerge or another bully to gain support. Before that can happen she sets the group against itself. They go at each-other, completely unaware she's pulling their strings. She then steps in and rescues everyone from the trap she set up. Several people go away licking their wounds while others have rising in the ranks.

    There's logic here, but it's the worst of human nature. I've pushed her hard several times to use her leadership role in a more positive manner. However she got where she is, she's still been chosen as leader and she could do a lot of damn good. She clings bullying because she lacks the skill set of a real leader. She deflects and distracts from her message. She doesn't really care about it. This is why her message often seems to contradict itself and there's a huge gap between her actions and her words. It's also why she refuses to let go of the rage. Backing her posts with anger conveys interest to the reader. It also helps her mask her true motivations from herself(False convictions). Ever notice that extremists are almost always in denial? Well there you go.

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  187. Insightful UEUH.

    Fubs is also good at tying herself to and claiming credit for positive outcomes, that she IRL either had no involvement with or at best minimal input into.

    Take her "We did it" post on them finding that stolen mare in Tx. I highly doubt that the thief(ves) read her blog and went 'Oh crap, we've been outed' and then dumped the mare along the road.

    Then there was her 'help' at the Three Strikes Fiasco in NE. Fugs was there. But by all accounts did not actually DO anything. Well, except for bitch that no one was thoughtful enough to remember the vegetarians when they were providing free food. Her only reason for going was just so she said she did. She was definitely incapable of riding in any of the round-ups. Had no pick-up or horse trailer to help provide transportation. And certainly no experience with working with a large group of wild horses that needed to be sorted and ran through chutes to be doctored.

    But Fugs has figured out how to use the Grand "WE" to her advantage and uses it to include herself and sometimes her followers in a feel good moment that IRL they had no part in, furthering the delusion that they are actually making a difference.

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  188. Kaede and UEUH, Great responses. Dead on.

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  189. Here's a chuckle for you all: within hours (minutes?) of Fugly's latest post going up, both videos that she linked to were pulled.

    Fugly, here's a hint: bullies are popular only with other bullies.

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  190. Fugly talking about how the crab-loping WP horses have never been taught to go straight and the reason they travel sideways like they do now is just assinine.

    These WP horses ARE taught to crab-canter like that. What a dummy!

    I will have to say, that I agree with her that watching horses travel like that is nearly as painful as what the horses must be feeling.

    How is it that horses that do nothing but travel in mostly straight lines down a rail have as many, if not more issues with their backs, hocks and stifles as a horse that is a competitive performance horse, like a reiner, working cowhorse or barrel horse?

    Hmmm...could it be that horses, no matter how much you breed for it, are not designed to move that ridiculously slow, low, humped up and now add traveling like a pretzel?

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  191. There's a lot of stuff here that had nothing to do with the question in the post so I'm not really sure which direction to go because there certainly are a lot of directions. With that being said I agree with Fugly in the big scheme of thing. There are problems within the horse industry, lots of them actually.

    However, I don't think what she's doing is helping any of those issues. I think she's confused readership and discussion as a means to a solution when in actuality what she done is polarize people.

    Productive long term solutions for issues don't arise from people taking sides. They can happen only when people work together towards solutions.

    Unfortunately while the fighting goes on between the sides, the horses who really need help are still dying, still being abused and neglected, etc. If half the energy was put into finding real solutions that is put into keeping the fires burning, maybe the horses who need it would get some real help.

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  192. Productive long term solutions for issues don't arise from people taking sides. They can happen only when people work together towards solutions.

    I agree completely.

    However, people who stake out extreme positions can help make changes. Less extreme (or smarter or craftier or wiser or pick your adjective) people can get a seat at the table because they can appear more reasonable than the extremist position. I've watched it happen over and over again, in multiple contexts.

    In my experience the edge folks don't necessarily know that's the role they're playing. They really think their viewpoint is the only rational one. They often also claim that they were the ones that precipitated change. They're not, but only the people who are involved know that. They often proclaim loudly that they are the reason "bad guys" compromised.

    I actually see some value in the place she has staked out, but only because she makes others seem rational.

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  193. I agree with the fhotd blog on the most obvious points. Horses shouldn't starve to death; breed quality to quality making sure the two compliment and enhance each other; parents should make sure kids wear helmets (I think everyone should wear helmets, but it's your skull/brain). I can see her point on some other things, but her methods are disturbing.

    I've been casually reading her blog for a while. My "lightbulb" moment came when I was reading comments and someone (I think it was Go Lightly) was asking for receipts for Champ. I found the "Wench" site and learned the VLC still had his male-bits and...oh, the hypocrisy! I won't say it turned my world upside down, but it made me read her blog in a whole new light.

    I love what you guys have done here and I've enjoyed watching the number of comments increase.

    Oh--one more thing, in her latest post, she has a "blind item" about her witnessing a horse being kicked repeatedly in the stomach. Commenters have asked her what happened when she intervened. She has yet to respond.

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  194. Fiona -
    Exactly.
    Once a very wise man (he became a U.S. Circuit Court Judge) told me that you need the extremes to find a balance. So you get the crazy Neo-Nazi, Klu Klux Klan shooting abortion doctors folks on the far right and the tree-hugging, composting their own poop, marijuana smoking peace lovers on the far left. Sometimes the teeter-totter gets tipped too far one way or another, but generally, you hope it gets balanced somewhere in the middle. And for all its frustrations, inadequacies and injustices, that is the beauty of our country!

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  195. There is not a lot to disagree with on FHotD basic principles.

    No one but the very mentally ill:
    Wants horses to be abused.
    Wants horses to be neglected.
    Deliberately puts a child in harms way.
    Deliberately sets out to breed a worthless horse.

    But the devil is in the details.

    How is regulated breeding going to be set up and enforced? Who gets to decide which horses should be bred? How far a step is it do declaring that X quality horses must be bred?

    FHotD has publicly stated she doesn't believe that the Feds and animals play well together. Only the elected government can make laws. Only the courts can enforce them. Like Barbossa says of the Pirate Code "And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules."

    Abuse and neglect are hard to define. As Justice Stewart said of porno "I know it when I see it". Which is were "community standards" comes in to play. My horse lives in a barn that has someone available in the barn 24/7. He gets fed three times a day and thoroughly groomed every day. He has an automatic waterer in his stall. His stall is picked out twice a day. he has supervised turnout twice a day. He wears a fly sheet and mask when outside. A vet is on call 24/7.Some folks would tell you that this is abuse. He is not living a "natural" life.

    If the other folks horses are turned out in the back 40 with "only" a loafing shed and a spring fed pond, are they being neglected? Who gets to define and enforce?

    My daughter rides a motorcycle. She is a licensed motorcycle driver. My daughters friend's parents will tell you I am being at best foolish; at worst, criminally reckless with my daughters life. Who gets to decide, my daughter, myself and our insurance agent, or the helicopter parents down the street? The ones who call their 22 year old son's boss up when he pulls a less then desirable work shift?

    I found FHotD when I was doing research on the Chinese phenomenon of Human Flesh Search Engine. Did the USA "home of the free" have such a thing. FHotD convinced me we do. Cathy Atkins bears watching.

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  196. OK Fubb your Buddys at Enumclaw have 4-5 TB's that have been dumped one w/ a broken leg the Tattoos have been altered You need to jump all over this!


    http://auctionhorses.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=auctionhorses&action=display&thread=1688&page=1

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  197. I have had some things going on recently in my personal life so haven't been able to do much more than keep up with the comments. Each time I do, I am impressed.

    Has anyone noticed that there is very rarely a troll here? The reason why is because the discussions going on here are intelligent, informed and just downright reasonable. I think the trolls would love to come on here but they know they would never survive, too many smarts here!

    Good for everyone!

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